Airline Pilot Haters

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:29 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Cat...I just get the impression that you are very disgruntled with Canadian aviation by reading your numerous posts...you are forever complaining about Transport, and how useless the new generation of pilots are, etc, etc....You come across with the attitude that everything you did in your career could never be matched by the spoiled rich kids that fly airplanes today...we could never be as good as your generation was because we have computers, and autoland, and this and that...

If the bitter-old-guy handle fits, you have no choice but to wear it...in my eyes anyway....but what do I know, right?

Not much, I would say. Where are you pulling this from, that Cat is down on pilots of today? Your ass? Have you ever even read the list of types Cat's flown or qualified on? Hardly someone who's afraid of technology...but if you want to project your own feelings of inadequacy I understand....

The problem is, there just is no casual way to toss it out there, that you have over half a century in aviation!

What's that saying, "It ain't bragging if you can do it?"

Complaining my arse. He's actually doing something about it, are you? And if he's so old, why does he bother? Who will benefit, Cat or future pilots if TC is forced to clean up their act even slightly? Read up a bit on the history of the issues with TC and maybe you'll understand. Not that Cat needs me or anyone to defend him.

And Doc, while I do understand where you're coming from, heck I even agree to a point, ease up on the airline guys a bit eh?

I started on pistons flying bag runs years ago and now I'm doing the "Land 3" thing daily, and believe me I ain't going back to analog instruments or paper checklists EVER AGAIN!!

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:36 am

Ok, ok.

You guys are really carrying this one a long way.... Lol. I think it can very safely be said that modern flying, while requiring a different skill set than days/and aircraft gone by, it is nowhere near as challenging on a daily basis. That's not to say there aren't challenges these days, but on a relative scale, most of them pale in comparison to the "old days" when the equipment itself was manual, weather reporting was much less accurate, there was no GPS, INS, or if you go back far enough, no ILS. If you got lost, there were fewer places to go, if you crashed you were in for a long wait... not the case anymore.

Cat, Doc, Hedley and the like have experienced many of these things, and I think still remember the days when Pilot's really worked for their living, even in the airlines. There are a few jobs these days that still fall into the category of "challenging," mostly in the Arctic and other extreme environments, but even those have many more safety nets than they used to.

So, it all boils down to this:

If you want to have the sharpest hands and feet skills, understand your environment (wind and weather) as fully as one can, put yourself at more risk everyday you go to work, fly a helicopter in the mountains. It's really that simple. Yet even this has changed immensely in the past few decades as the understanding of aerodynamics, the introduction of Flight an Duty times, and the advent of GPS systems have made things much easier.

Fly safe everyone.

STL

Edited for some pretty bad pre-coffee spelling....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:51 am

" Complaining my arse. He's actually doing something about it, are you? And if he's so old, why does he bother? Who will benefit, Cat or future pilots if TC is forced to clean up their act even slightly? Read up a bit on the history of the issues with TC and maybe you'll understand. Not that Cat needs me or anyone to defend him. "

Thank you complexintentions:

I am determined to bring some accountability into the office of Merlin Preuss for the simple reason that I do not want to leave aviation to that manner of management, I was very fortunate in my career and want the next generation to at least be governed by people with intregity not by missfits who have formed a " Good old boy " club and crucify anyone who is deemed to be a danger to their group.

As to what I have flown, hell I can't recall e'm all but for you guys who fly the new generation stuff I'm sure you will relate to my last flight.

It was one of those crystal clear nights when you could see forever across Europe on the way down to Turkey out of Amsterdam at 410............

............what made my last flight priceless was I was 70 years old and was flying as a crew member in a modern glass cockpit Boeing with all the equipment that makes todays airliners facinating to operate.......

...and I was flying under an exemption from JAR /JAA rules on age and approved by the chief pilot of the charter company.....

...not bad for an old bitter has been huh?

Cat

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:57 am

sky's the limit wrote:Ok, ok.

You guys are really carrying this one a long way.... Lol. I think it can very safely be said that modern flying, while requiring a different skill set than days/and aircraft gone by, it is nowhere near as challenging on a daily basis. That's not to say there aren't challenges these days, but on a relative scale, most of them pale in comparison to the "old days" when the equipment itself was manual, weather reporting was much less accurate, there was no GPS, INS, or if you go back far enough, no ILS. If you got lost, there were fewer places to go, if you crashed you were in for a long wait... not the case anymore.

Cat, Doc, Hedley and the like have experienced many of these things, and I think still remember the days when Pilot's really worked for their living, even in the airlines. There are a few jobs these days that still fall into the category of "challenging," mostly in the Arctic and other extreme environments, but even those have many more safety nets than they used to.

So, it all boils down to this:

If you want to have the sharpest hands and feet skills, understand your environment (wind and weather) as fully as one can, put yourself at more risk everyday you go to work, fly a helicopter in the mountains. It's really that simple. Yet even this has changed immensely in the past few decades as the understanding of aerodynamics, the introduction of Flight an Duty times, and the advent of GPS systems have made things much easier.

Fly safe everyone.

STL

Edited for some pretty bad pre-coffee spelling....

Perfect! One more non-airline pilot to tell us all how non-challenging airline flying is! lol

I must be stupider than most. I have found the airline flying I'm doing now, from training to operations, the most challenging of my career. Oh well! At least the pay matches!

Guess it all depends on your definition of "challenge".

[edited to add quote so it makes more sense]

wingtip · Post by **wingtip** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:08 am

Airline flying is easy. The masses they hire have the full range of skills, some good, some bad, yet they all survive.

Sorry Complex, but having BTDT, you are in left field. Either that or you truely don't understand how others make their living.

The difficulties in todays airlines are living on the salaries and the constant threat of boredom.

jjj · Post by **jjj** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:41 am

When I hear about all the wee lads on the lower tiers of aviation boasting that their job is tougher than an airline pilot's; I suppose it's true perhaps as far as having to a bit of sexy hand flying now and again - but that's it.
Also realize that when the winds reach a certain threshold - autoland is not an option - and like most days we bring her in with hands and feet.

Doing a good job at the front end of an airliner requires a whole new skill set that a lot of folks here just don't appreciate because they haven't been there yet. Even with respect to button pushing - talent plays hugely into how you manage the energy of your airplane.

So don't be hatin' - you don't know what you're talkin' 'bout.

Remember this to all of you that boast about your mighty feats of landing on an an icy runway on fire with 20 knot quartering tailwind while staring into the sun - been there done that - just like everybody else.

Now @#$! off.

spartacus · Post by **spartacus** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:21 pm

jjj wrote:
Remember this to all of you that boast about your mighty feats of landing on an an icy runway on fire with 20 knot quartering tailwind while staring into the sun - been there done that - just like everybody else.

Now @#$! off.

But the question is....have the Seneca grads?

Nope, didn't think so.

frontside_air · Post by **frontside_air** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:37 pm

sheesh, pilots are such a fickle collection of troglodytes. it's practically impossible to have any sort of dynamic discussion without having it turn into a big circle jerk; everyone brandishing their cocks and ICAO chart rulers. why do we always feel the need to pander and bandy about like there's something to prove (to eachother, no less)? it all goes right along with the big watches and convertables with the "GR8 2 AV8" vanity plates.... maybe that's what it is- this occupation attracts the delicately vain who didn't get enough attention in high school and are forced to spend the rest of their lives substantiating their career choice with tales of slaying the beast in order to make themselves feel better about how shitty their QOL has been for the past ten years.

well you're all heroes.
i respect the guys/gals up north gettin' the job done day in and day out using the wisdom and discipline that have kept them alive over the years. i respect the guys/gals in the big iron doing the balancing act of juggling turn around times, pax issues, company pressures, and being forced to wear silly hats. actually, i respect anyone busting their balls trying to make a life for their family in this godforsaken business.

don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a bag full of "so there i was" stories but at the end of the day i'm a lazy SOB and would much rather be telling them while laying a fat contrail at some mach number two times the flight level we're at while i sip coffee doing as little as i can for as much money as i can.

personally, i don't feel the need to "hang it out" everytime i head out or have any particular desire to share a cockpit with someone who has something to prove/wants to show me why they're hot shit. give me a workplace where everyone respects eachother and where i can leave work at work when i clock out and retire fat, dumb and sunburned!

but that's just me

....... · Post by **.......** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:31 pm

frontside_air wrote:actually, i respect anyone busting their balls trying to make a life for their family in this godforsaken business.

Or any other business for that matter!

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:19 pm

***THIS JUST IN: Frontside is now the one to beat for the best post of 2007 award.***

Every avenue of aviation has it's own unique set of challenges that must be met with an equally unique skill set. Instructors, medevac pilots, float drivers, bush drivers in general, regional and airline guys all face challenges in their day to day jobs. None face exactly the same challenges and not all of these challenges appeal to everyone. So, you get a guy like me who enjoys the challenge of strapping a canoe to the side of the airplane or packing it full of caribou meat and flying off to some untouched lake I've never been to before and quite likely no one has been to before. That doesn't appeal to everyone and that's OK with me because sitting at the controls of an automated machine doesn't appeal to me. That doesn't mean I don't think the guys that do like that aren't skilled. They just have a different skill set. I think where the difference lies is this: as you go more towards the airline end of the aviation spectrum the skill sets required tend more towards effective systems management rather than the bush end of the spectrum where the skill sets required tend more towards the hands and feet and common sense. I suppose that some guys, myself included probably, feel that the bush type of flying, man and machine against the elements is the traditional, almost "purist" type of aviation, what it was meant to be like 50 or 100 years ago. But it's a big world out there and there's plenty of room for all types of aviating, so maybe we all just need to respect that while a certain type of flying isn't for us, it might just be up someone else's alley. I don't think too many airline pilots could jump in my plane and do my job, just as I don't think I could jump in their plane and do their job.
I still like my job better though.

pika · Post by **pika** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:48 pm

Amen to that. Be happy what you are doing.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:05 pm

wingtip wrote:Airline flying is easy. The masses they hire have the full range of skills, some good, some bad, yet they all survive.

Sorry Complex, but having BTDT, you are in left field. Either that or you truely don't understand how others make their living.

The difficulties in todays airlines are living on the salaries and the constant threat of boredom.

lol ahhh...truly you are world-weary and wise! Thanks for knowing more about my experiences, my career history, and my life apparently, than I do! If it's so easy, like I said guess I'm just a little slower than the rest!

I'm glad I still find planning to dodge typhoon weather, volcanic ash plumes, and considering for 207 minute ETOPS still to be challenging...I hate to be bored!

lol I would LOVE to hear what experience you have that qualifies your "airline flying is easy" or "BTDT", so that I could figure out where my lackings are!

....... · Post by **.......** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:08 pm

shimmydampner, I wholehartedly agree with you on this except for this part:

shimmydampner wrote: as you go more towards the airline end of the aviation spectrum the skill sets required tend more towards effective systems management rather than the bush end of the spectrum where the skill sets required tend more towards the hands and feet and common sense.

Why would common sense, and hands and feet be left out of the airline equation more than in bush flying? It's as if to say that company S.O.P.s are to be followed to death... It does cover a lot of situations but you and I both know that not everything is written in the book.

Also, hands and feet (and head)still make, to my knowledge at least, a better approach and landing than automation, but hey, I haven't flown the 777 or 330 yet. I'm still part of the ol' 1011/310 club.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:10 pm

" Amen to that. Be happy what you are doing. "

I'm happier than a pig in the mud, I finally figured out how to paint with my new HVLP painting outfit.

Did the primer coat on CRI CRI wings and fuselege today and it looks real good.....

....now if I can do the final coat and trim I'll be even happier.

HVLP is quite different and there is very little over spray so I don't end up painting everything in the neighbourhood.

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:09 pm

SkyLounger wrote:shimmydampner, I wholehartedly agree with you on this except for this part:

shimmydampner wrote: as you go more towards the airline end of the aviation spectrum the skill sets required tend more towards effective systems management rather than the bush end of the spectrum where the skill sets required tend more towards the hands and feet and common sense.

Why would common sense, and hands and feet be left out of the airline equation more than in bush flying? It's as if to say that company S.O.P.s are to be followed to death... It does cover a lot of situations but you and I both know that not everything is written in the book.

Also, hands and feet (and head)still make, to my knowledge at least, a better approach and landing than automation, but hey, I haven't flown the 777 or 330 yet. I'm still part of the ol' 1011/310 club.

I didn't mean to imply that common sense, and hands and feet skills are left completely out of the equation, merely that airline machines are automated with the intention of providing a layer of insulation against human error. There are multiple systems in place to replace direct inputs and actions by pilots whereas when a guy jumps in his 185 there is no layers between him and full and complete control of everything. And no SOPs etc etc. Hands and feet and common sense are the only things that pilot has to work with as there are no systems designed to make his life easier. The point I was trying to make was merely that on a comparative scale, those things play a larger role on a significantly less advanced machine.

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:25 am

shimmydampner wrote:***THIS JUST IN: Frontside is now the one to beat for the best post of 2007 award.***

Every avenue of aviation has it's own unique set of challenges that must be met with an equally unique skill set. Instructors, medevac pilots, float drivers, bush drivers in general, regional and airline guys all face challenges in their day to day jobs. None face exactly the same challenges and not all of these challenges appeal to everyone. ... I don't think too many airline pilots could jump in my plane and do my job, just as I don't think I could jump in their plane and do their job.
I still like my job better though.

This thread could have ended 2 pages ago with this post.

frontside_air · Post by **frontside_air** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:29 am

indeed. you don't see doctors and paramedics slagging eachother

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:59 am

Hey frontside,

Judging by your happy demeanour I'm guessing that congrats are in order. Well congrats buddy! We'll have to grab a pint soon. Cheers!!!

Great post BTW!

frontside_air · Post by **frontside_air** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:24 am

tx dude. AZ tuesday, put the word out!

FlyingFiremenC/PGSon · Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:10 am

What is really funny is the fact that the people posting here think that aviation jobs are any harder than ANY other job out there. Let's not forget that all the bravado and dickmeasuring occurs in every profession and there is nothing original about about the attitudes of people who believe they are holier than though. Whether with the airlines or a fishing camp there are always the guys that are trying to make up for the 2 inch pecker beteen their legs with bluff and bluster.... get over it and listen to what people have to say about their own experience then move on.

jjj · Post by **jjj** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:21 am

So WTF.....

Been hearing a lot of judgment flinging about the suitability of a Seneca grad jumping into the seat of a Dash at JAZZ.

Don't actually know if this is rumor or actually happening - don't care.

However, if it's true - what of it. Jazz has the right to run it's flight department the way they see fit. Why do pilots with more time than a Seneca grad feel they are more entitled to the job. Jazz can make whatever rules they want for their ops - just like every other airline.

Some airlines have required University degrees in the past and you sure as hell don't need one to fly an airliner. So why get bent.

Some airlines require that you know how many stators are on a RB211 and you don't need to know that to fly the big tin. So why get bent.

Some operators don't hire girls some operators prefer old dogs and so on and so on......

Sorry if you don't like it - shut the @#$! up and start your own flight department and run it your way.

Get off your ass and get a job and stop whining about people that have an unfair advantage in your eyes. You are not the arbiter of what is right and wrong.

These are bountiful times and movement in the industry is exceeding most peoples predictions.

Like I said - shut the @#$! up - you know who you are.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:33 am

Do you eat with that mouth?

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:40 am

Sounds like someone is a Seneca grad in the runnings for the big job.

Oh and by the way, calm down. You're making a fool of yourself.

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:21 pm

frontside_air wrote:tx dude. AZ tuesday, put the word out!

I'll bring my ICAO chart rule!