Wasaya pilots treat their ramp guys like sh*t.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
I should really stay out of this one because I realize I won't be winning rampies choice awards for kindness. Wasaya like most northern ontario operators is probably experiencing massive turnover in staff. I bet most of their rampies are brand new and don't have a clue. It's not their fault but it's probably why the pilots are frustrated with them. If a guy tries to load an extra 1000 lbs of lumber on you because he doesn't look at a load sheet you aren't going to invite him over for a tea party. Nobody deserves constant harrassment though. Sending the new guy to get the Prop Wash from the AME's is all in good fun.
Capt. Tool and your little bitch friends,
Congrats, in the 4 years or so I've been reading this forum, this is the one time I've felt the need to post.
HARDWORK is ALL this whole bullshit thread comes down too. That's it!!!
If your gonna f#ck the dog and act like a little bitch, you'll be treated like one. Grow some balls, do your job, and take it like a man.
F#ck Off,
Belly
Congrats, in the 4 years or so I've been reading this forum, this is the one time I've felt the need to post.
HARDWORK is ALL this whole bullshit thread comes down too. That's it!!!
If your gonna f#ck the dog and act like a little bitch, you'll be treated like one. Grow some balls, do your job, and take it like a man.
F#ck Off,
Belly
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
That last post is another example of the reason aviation is degenerating into a career that deserves less respect than a chain gang working along side of a road in the deep south.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Since when is it too much for an employer to expect only hardwork from their employees??That last post is another example of the reason aviation is degenerating into a career that deserves less respect than a chain gang working along side of a road in the deep south.
If you can't show up to work and do your job, than Respect...as you say, is the last thing you'll get from me.
Keep Moving.
Belly
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Let me tell you something belly, never mind respect, with that attitude you may end up with respect being the least of your concerns.If your gonna f#ck the dog and act like a little bitch, you'll be treated like one. Grow some balls, do your job, and take it like a man.
F#ck Off,
Belly
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well, with Respect aside.Let me tell you something belly, never mind respect, with that attitude you may end up with respect being the least of your concerns.
My lack of sympathy for this thread is in no way related to my ability to make rational decisions at work. ( I assume this is what your implying.)
Perhaps if it was my 7000th post, it would.
Work ethic will definitely sway the flight crew’s opinion of a ramp worker. New personnel not able to keep up to the pace or lacking the initiative to learn are quickly outcast. They become the target at the bottom of a chain of events gone horribly wrong. The chain though, is really the regular gong-show of our industry that changes pace so rapidly.
But tired, overworked co-pilots and captains, dreading every next turnaround and the chaos involved sometimes get on the last straw. Confusion is among the green non-flying-pilots waiting on the ramp to meet the airplane. When the aircraft lands the flight crew themselves are then responsible for every minor detail of logistics. And they feel somewhat obligated to on-the-job train the new ramp crew. All the while having to forfeit flight planning and washroom breaks in order to stay within a duty day, along with many other well-known pressures placed upon the crew of a do-it-yourself flight operation, like so many in Canada. All this will bring some to burst, their anger let out on to the weak ramp workers that are of no use.
Many more crew members are able to accept the challenges that come with the job, and also understand the road to attaining their flight position. These patient folks will take time to foster the new hires all the way through to their first flying position. This is how to maintain a god complex that the young non-flying-pilots have for you.
But tired, overworked co-pilots and captains, dreading every next turnaround and the chaos involved sometimes get on the last straw. Confusion is among the green non-flying-pilots waiting on the ramp to meet the airplane. When the aircraft lands the flight crew themselves are then responsible for every minor detail of logistics. And they feel somewhat obligated to on-the-job train the new ramp crew. All the while having to forfeit flight planning and washroom breaks in order to stay within a duty day, along with many other well-known pressures placed upon the crew of a do-it-yourself flight operation, like so many in Canada. All this will bring some to burst, their anger let out on to the weak ramp workers that are of no use.
Many more crew members are able to accept the challenges that come with the job, and also understand the road to attaining their flight position. These patient folks will take time to foster the new hires all the way through to their first flying position. This is how to maintain a god complex that the young non-flying-pilots have for you.
Maybe the inescapable conclusion is to hire professional rampies who have attained their goals instead of guys who are playing the game just to get ahead or move on? Another reason to not work the ramp - you are required to perform in a position you don't want to satisfy pilots who don't want you either all because management is too screwed up to organize their business into something that works consistently.
Working the ramp is a stupid process - the sooner you all recognise its failings, the better off this whole industry will be.
Working the ramp is a stupid process - the sooner you all recognise its failings, the better off this whole industry will be.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
-
Pilatusable
- Rank 2
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:05 am
- Location: Victoria
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
That is exactly what I'm implying belly you are incapable of professional decisions judging by your attitude and beligerence in your posts, which tell me that you are the perfect example of someone I would never share a flight deck with and if I were on the receiving end of your childish bully boy attitiude and I was a ramp worker I would cold cock you right on the ramp just prior to quitting the job.My lack of sympathy for this thread is in no way related to my ability to make rational decisions at work. ( I assume this is what your implying.)
Hope that clears up my opinion of you?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
LOL,That is exactly what I'm implying belly you are incapable of professional decisions judging by your attitude and beligerence in your posts, which tell me that you are the perfect example of someone I would never share a flight deck with and if I were on the receiving end of your childish bully boy attitiude and I was a ramp worker I would cold cock you right on the ramp just prior to quitting the job.
Hope that clears up my opinion of you?
Jesus...How do I respond to that.
You've got me all figured out, and it only took one post.
-
megaton montage
- Rank 1
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:38 pm
I think Belly has it right on, as well as a couple of other guys here. the only time guys dont work out on the ground is because of their greater ability to get out of work than to do it. it doesnt mean that you have to shut up and do dangerous things and stupid things, it just means, 1) shut up, 2) do the job you are told, 3) do it as a team with the rest of the guys there (and listen to the guys who have been working on the ramp for a year or so, maybe they know something).
there is nothing more frustrating than trying to get a plane loaded or sort freight from a truck and one of your guys just isnt there, yet again, and again, and again. showing up when you are just about done to help you close the doors and take away the shrink wrap. you are working harder because someone from your TEAM is jerking off somewhere.
the bonds that you can make with a ground guy, or with a pilot as a ground guy, last for life. the friendships made are strong because you are working, sweating and getting hurt by 48s of carnation over and over again.
just like in every facet of life too, new guys get hassled. it is a way to feel out the new guy. what is up with all these guys saying ohhhhh, you dont have to put up with it... leave get a new job. you dont, but you dont go and cry to mommy or the manager. you give it back, work hard, earn their respect, which you should have to EARN, it should not be given to you...in any profession. thats the way it is, it is a great way to see how someone will react...if he is easy going, uptight, a little shit or a guy you wouldnt mind sitting beside for hours on end or overnighting with.( which is what it will all come down to when they are off of the ground) it is a perfect chance to evaluate the type of person that you just hired, that you hope will be in your company for years to come.
whoever says working on the ground is a waste of time and demeaning has not experienced what it is like. and if they have, they are probably one of the guys who show up for a little while, cant handle being away from the GTA and their little boyfriends and hair salons, cant stand getting up before sunrise, cant begin to learn to work as a team, assume they already know everything and have to tell everyone, and then finally cant take a few jokes at their expense and are too busy crying inside at the travesty of being told they are too slow, or too young, or too old, or too blonde or too white or too city, or too country, whatever, to make any retort ( quite another unon sentence i know)
if a guy isnt pulling his weight, then he has to be told, some have to be told many, many times, and then it turns into them being harrassed. all you bitches out there know who you are who fall into that category.
this is quite a long rant i know, all to say exactly what Belly said, and Stef too, straight and to the point.
And dun my time, who do you think you are. some of the best people in the world EVER have worked on the ground for at least that long, how can you even say something like that. a few years ago nobody was moving anywhere you moron. and yet they stuck it out that long because they wanted to fly and thats what they had to go through to do it. how many guys now would have the nerve to cowboy up and do it until it is done?
there is nothing more frustrating than trying to get a plane loaded or sort freight from a truck and one of your guys just isnt there, yet again, and again, and again. showing up when you are just about done to help you close the doors and take away the shrink wrap. you are working harder because someone from your TEAM is jerking off somewhere.
the bonds that you can make with a ground guy, or with a pilot as a ground guy, last for life. the friendships made are strong because you are working, sweating and getting hurt by 48s of carnation over and over again.
just like in every facet of life too, new guys get hassled. it is a way to feel out the new guy. what is up with all these guys saying ohhhhh, you dont have to put up with it... leave get a new job. you dont, but you dont go and cry to mommy or the manager. you give it back, work hard, earn their respect, which you should have to EARN, it should not be given to you...in any profession. thats the way it is, it is a great way to see how someone will react...if he is easy going, uptight, a little shit or a guy you wouldnt mind sitting beside for hours on end or overnighting with.( which is what it will all come down to when they are off of the ground) it is a perfect chance to evaluate the type of person that you just hired, that you hope will be in your company for years to come.
whoever says working on the ground is a waste of time and demeaning has not experienced what it is like. and if they have, they are probably one of the guys who show up for a little while, cant handle being away from the GTA and their little boyfriends and hair salons, cant stand getting up before sunrise, cant begin to learn to work as a team, assume they already know everything and have to tell everyone, and then finally cant take a few jokes at their expense and are too busy crying inside at the travesty of being told they are too slow, or too young, or too old, or too blonde or too white or too city, or too country, whatever, to make any retort ( quite another unon sentence i know)
if a guy isnt pulling his weight, then he has to be told, some have to be told many, many times, and then it turns into them being harrassed. all you bitches out there know who you are who fall into that category.
this is quite a long rant i know, all to say exactly what Belly said, and Stef too, straight and to the point.
And dun my time, who do you think you are. some of the best people in the world EVER have worked on the ground for at least that long, how can you even say something like that. a few years ago nobody was moving anywhere you moron. and yet they stuck it out that long because they wanted to fly and thats what they had to go through to do it. how many guys now would have the nerve to cowboy up and do it until it is done?
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
O.K. kids lets get right down to reality.
People go to flight school to get a license to fly and no where in the flight training is working on the ramp to prove your work ethic taught.
Those of you who are chest pounding about the difficulty of operating airplanes in southern Canada ie places like Pickle Lake without the help of ramp workers are kind of stretching the imagination concerning tough working conditions.
There was a time when pilots were hired as pilots and the chief pilots soon culled those who did not or could not carry their weight in the company, so to speak.
As to being able to work under difficult conditions that was all part of the job and none of us ever thought we needed other pilots as manual labour servants to make sure we got the trips done.
If you have operated airplanes like the DC6 in the high arctic in the winter with only the crew to do everything you could maybe come here on Avcanada and say you sometimes really had it tough.
But the truth is those of us who were brought up that way, working as pilots without baby sitters never thought to use it as a means to demean other pilots without an airplane to fly.
The root cause of this conflict between licensed pilots is of course because of companies who use you, all of you, by deviding you into two classes of pilots and the sad part is some of you fall for it.
O.K. kids have at me.
People go to flight school to get a license to fly and no where in the flight training is working on the ramp to prove your work ethic taught.
Those of you who are chest pounding about the difficulty of operating airplanes in southern Canada ie places like Pickle Lake without the help of ramp workers are kind of stretching the imagination concerning tough working conditions.
There was a time when pilots were hired as pilots and the chief pilots soon culled those who did not or could not carry their weight in the company, so to speak.
As to being able to work under difficult conditions that was all part of the job and none of us ever thought we needed other pilots as manual labour servants to make sure we got the trips done.
If you have operated airplanes like the DC6 in the high arctic in the winter with only the crew to do everything you could maybe come here on Avcanada and say you sometimes really had it tough.
But the truth is those of us who were brought up that way, working as pilots without baby sitters never thought to use it as a means to demean other pilots without an airplane to fly.
The root cause of this conflict between licensed pilots is of course because of companies who use you, all of you, by deviding you into two classes of pilots and the sad part is some of you fall for it.
O.K. kids have at me.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
JohnnyHotRocks
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1084
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am
-
dun my time
- Rank 0
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:35 pm
- Location: still in the bush after 45 years
Wasaya
Cat, how come it is the oldest farts around that can see this stuff. My best wishes today. dr
-
ninjacrumb
- Rank 2
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 2:08 pm
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
dun my time, I guess it comes from the passage of time.
But regardless of what is going on today I believe we lived in a better era of aviation.
The one thing that really gobsmacks me is the lack of respect shown for others especially their elders by so many in this new era.
I would have never have even dreamed of talking down to or insulting the senior people in aviation when I was working my way up through the industry.
To have done so would have been fatal to our careers.
But regardless of what is going on today I believe we lived in a better era of aviation.
The one thing that really gobsmacks me is the lack of respect shown for others especially their elders by so many in this new era.
I would have never have even dreamed of talking down to or insulting the senior people in aviation when I was working my way up through the industry.
To have done so would have been fatal to our careers.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
All the more reason to start from the ground up and learn a little humility. These ramp guys aren't slave labourers, give your head a shake, the're learning the operation and some valuable lessons along the way.People go to flight school to get a license to fly and no where in the flight training is working on the ramp to prove your work ethic taught.
We're all well aware of the "Glory Days", get over them This isn't 1950....it's now 2007, the costs of training new pilots is upwards of 10,000. Operationally speaking, I'd wanna be damn sure I was putting a hard working responsible person in that seat, the ramp will show true colours..
If this was AvShoolYard, we still be having the same pissing match. A couple little girls didn't want to work, got yelled at, and cried about it.
It's late we'll cry mañana,
Belly.
-
invertedattitude
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2353
- Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:12 pm
My time on the ramp for the majors is something I would never trade.
The Ramp is the link between the front end, and the cockpit and flight crew.
The Ramp is where you really see how airlines work, you get to see the differences between counter staff and flight staff.
You are the ones explaining many front end issues with the pilots, and explaining to the front end staff about issues with the pilots.
Besides, I still love every once and a while to "Walk out" an A330 or B747... hell even the 737 is fun... nothing like standing 10-15 feet from a screaming jet engine, or turning prop to keep your attention.
The Ramp is the link between the front end, and the cockpit and flight crew.
The Ramp is where you really see how airlines work, you get to see the differences between counter staff and flight staff.
You are the ones explaining many front end issues with the pilots, and explaining to the front end staff about issues with the pilots.
Besides, I still love every once and a while to "Walk out" an A330 or B747... hell even the 737 is fun... nothing like standing 10-15 feet from a screaming jet engine, or turning prop to keep your attention.
-
log sheet
- Rank 3
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:27 am
- Location: Northwestern ON, but the Heart belongs to the Rock!lol
[
Now if you want to aspire to a profession that truly does require more knowlege and mechanical skills become an aircraft mechanic.[/quote]
Cat, I always take great intrest in what you have to say with all of your experience in the industry!
Now I think I have just fallen in love with you!
Logsheet
A/C Mechanic
Now if you want to aspire to a profession that truly does require more knowlege and mechanical skills become an aircraft mechanic.[/quote]
Cat, I always take great intrest in what you have to say with all of your experience in the industry!
Now I think I have just fallen in love with you!
Logsheet
A/C Mechanic
Last edited by log sheet on Tue May 15, 2007 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GIT-R-DONE!
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
I am well aware of the changes from the 50's to today having worked as a pilot since the 50's, my opinion is based on having flown in both eras.We're all well aware of the "Glory Days", get over them This isn't 1950....it's now 2007,
My last flight as a working pilot was at FL 410 in one of Boeings Finest.
I do believe I can understand the whole picture.
Anyhow we shall agree to disagree, but I have this gut feeling there are a lot of young guys and gals out there who agree with me.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
