Jazz to Hire Pilots From Schools.

[_dwj_]

Is there really a comparision of the training recieved in canadian aviation college programs to the ones in europe? As I understand the european programs are much more developed on teaching the student a two crew environment from inital training on.

The courses in Europe are usually frozen ATPL, so the student has done all of the ATPL ground school exams but just doesn't have the 1500 flying hours. All of the European airlines require their FOs to have a frozen ATPL at the minimum as far as I am aware.

What courses do the Canadian colleges do? Is it just a basic CPL/IR? Is Jazz going to teach these students the ATPL ground school (or equivalent) before letting them fly as FO?

[flyinhigh]

Is Jazz going to teach these students the ATPL ground school (or equivalent) before letting them fly as FO?

NOPE, none, zilch, nadda.

t is a Cadet program in everything but name and the training they will receive.

Sorry but a true cadet program hires said individual after a intense interview process, than right off the start they are trained on a particular aircraft and its systems. Than if they cut it they go onto the line.

[Mclovin]

Xflyer I don't think anyone is trying to deter the guys from flying. What I think most people are thinking is that these guys should go out and get some real world experience before jumping into a Large two crew aircraft. I don't know about most other people but for me personally I went from flying a variety of single pistons bush, gravel, northern ops, into right seat of King Air when I had around 1500 hours and it was quite the jump I thought. I can't imagine what it is going from a C172, PA44 to an RJ or DHC-8.

Yes it is a great oppurtunity for these guys and I know a lot of guys here would do it too if the oppurtunity was there when they were graduating college. But I think a lot of younger guys with a fresh CPL have a huge hard on for flying and have the dream of walking through the terminal with there shiny uniforms and steppin on to the flight deck of a nice airplane.

I think maybe these guys are blinded by the big iron and uneducated on how the industry works in this country. The consensus seems to be from the guys I have talked to at Jazz and others that these guys are going to be a liability due to lack of real world experience. Anyway like I said before goodluck Jazz

[twinpratts]

Funny... Westjet has no problem obtaining and retaining qualified pilots. The going rate is between 4500-7500 hrs, many with large jet experience.
My heart goes out to the many great people at Jazz who are going to have to babysit 'junior', and are only a few years away from retirement themselves... so are forced to stay there .
Jazz may be trying to fool everyone into thinking it's a real cadet program, but if you look at the program at such places as Cathay... you can see it's nothing more than a way to fast track a greenhorn into an airplane, without paying anyone what they are worth. My buddy in YVR, who is an 8th year FO at Jazz had a T4 last year of $58K... compound this with a 14 yr wait to Captain... something's gotta give.

It's been said before...If you only pay peanuts, all you get are monkeys .

[Rudy]

Is this really such a big deal? Isn't starting pay at Jazz in the low 30k range? To me that matches up pretty well with a college grad's experience level. I just feel bad for the 5000 hour guys that think they've "made it" that will be sitting beside them in groundschool. They can hire whoever they want and you can choose to apply if you want. I choose not to.

[FlowPack]

I skipped to the end so excuse me if I'm regurgitating..

Or maybe it will be like this - most flying is generally not too terribly difficult, especially when you got otto driving and when you're flying on the big roads with tom tom or nav 'vector' canada leading you home.
Its sometimes hard to admit that we may not be such gifted individuals after all - most average people are capable of getting a pilot license.
The only difference I see with these grads (other than having to buy tires in bulk) is that when you're balls deep in bad weather or big decisions have to be made - it will be the experienced Captains' workload that will increase dramatically, not baby face.
I doubt that they have some rule that states the FO has to fly every second leg, even if it is to windy minimums. Nope, Captain 'it's up to f**kin' ME again' will have to make it happen.
Safety affected? Most times not. Safety redundancy affected? - solid YES.
I think Jazz might be playing the numbers and figures the likelihood of a flight deteriorating to the point it falls solely on the lap of a green FO is low enough.


Mmmmmm...Westjet.

[AV8OR]

I'm just wondering how this will work for upgrading to Captain with little to no PIC time.

[comfire]

Gentlemen
Being retired from the industry after 30yrs in and now looking back.I wish I had the opportunity to train a first officer right out of the gate while his 20 yr old brain is still a sponge.Least we forget when it was our time in Mr Daugherty's shoes. As far as respect in using it with (Mr.) Mr Daugherty has done nothing to warrant not having used it with his name.For those of you working with Mr Daugherty look at him as the future and helping him and others like him with your knowledge this will ensure the future of our trade.

[C-GGGQ]

I'm just wondering how this will work for upgrading to Captain with little to no PIC time.

this is the problem i have with it, all those ATPL reqs these guys will not have

[niwre]

timing is everything in Canada

its not about how many hours you can log anymore
its not about how many meat logs you can smoke anymore
its not about how many PPCs can you buy

its all about timing

I was told about 10 years ago (just entering high school then) it will take about 6000 before you can land a FO position where 2000 is golden now. I wish no ill will towards the benefactors of this new (to Canada anyways) system. It pisses me off I will admit but hey I would not say no so I cant really blame 'em. Jazz just has to realize that they have pissed off a great number of pilots and maybe that is causing the "pilot shortage" and not because there is a lack of pilots.

[Cat Driver]

Everything evolves, aviation is no different from any other human endeavour.

With proper training and careful selection before being put on line in an airline environment these young pilots will learn real fast and safety will not be compromized any more than two high time pilots thinking they each know better.

The ATPL issue is not difficult to deal with.

Just change the requirements to suit the airline enviornment.....PIC ....in and of its self is not the holy grail of ability.

There is my slant on this issue after much thinking on the big picture.

[C-GGGQ]

Just change the requirements to suit the airline enviornment.....PIC ....in and of its self is not the holy grail of ability.

There is my slant on this issue after much thinking on the big picture.

that would be far to simple for transport

[niwre]

Just change the requirements to suit the airline enviornment.....PIC ....in and of its self is not the holy grail of ability.

There is my slant on this issue after much thinking on the big picture.

that would be far to simple for transport

But it would allow them to hire a few dozen more buddies for "paper work" duties to "help" with the transition. Then just have them absorbed into the system saying that they are "essential" for day to day operations.

[Gards]

"I've experienced in-flight emergency (alternator failure at night), I know what its like to have to modify a flight plan and land at an alternate, etc etc."


I am going to venture a guess and say this, uhh, so called emergency was over somewhere in southern ontario where there are millions of lights and roads that are easy to follow.


Whats with this small penquin twit making this comment?

"Dont flame the new pilots such as Mr. Daugherty, if anyone, either blame the industry, or blame your fellow pilots who refuse to work for low wages."

This kid needs a serious kick in the balls. Is there really that many idiots that want to wear a tie and a hat so bad just to tell there friends they are an airline pilot, even if it means having to live off mommy and daddy until they are 40??

How old are you small penguin?

[Cat Driver]

Before I offered my opinion I thought about it and having seen the results of proper training for airline entry pilots in Europe it was my obversation that the end result was a very adaptable and well trained aprentice for the job of airline pilot.

I have flown with some and observed them at work while jump seating....

The real issue here is proper training and proper selection of the finished graduates with a workable cull process for the first xx months of line indoc.

[niwre]

Most of us can agree that anyone (possibly even a monkey) can be taught to fly a published approach to mins. But what happens when that book is on fire for if something happens thats not in the book?

But I hope we all can agree that we can still learn a few new things while flying, even if you have 20000+ hours. If a Captain (or FO for that matter) says they know everything they will ever need to Im getting off the plane.

[Dark Helmet]

Most of us are missing the big picture here. Screw all this, bad weather, gravel ops, emergencies, alternator failure (that made me BTW, Thanks penguin) blah blah blah.

Mr Happy Feet here is the second inexperienced pilot to tell us why I think hiring college grad is Tout Calice with this comment.

Dont flame the new pilots such as Mr. Daugherty, if anyone, either blame the industry, or blame your fellow pilots who refuse to work for low wages. If it werent for these two, Jazz wouldnt be looking at hiring Mr. Daugherty I'd imagine.

If there was a pilot shortage, would it not be in the best interest of Jazz to keep the experienced pilots they already have?

There is a pilot shortage in the US, ironically because the pilot profession has been so badly eroded, that people do not want to become pilots anymore, and the experienced ones are jumping ship and going overseas (Does this sound familiar).

I agree CAT (nice pic do Pao De Acucar BTW). if properly trained yes, they can do the job. Currently, the training at Jazz is not geared for that. It will take time and $$$ to develop such a program. As soon as our Six Sigma Team and their infinite wisdom realizes that they will simply drop the program. period.

Personally I just don't want to see the place that I work for become more like another Mesa Airlines (no offence Onrstein). Jazz hiring low time pilots is basically telling the rest of us that they are not interested in improving the conditions here. And will hire inexperienced pilots who don't know any better (reading their post proves it to be so).

If there were a real pilot shortage. a lot of people including myself would not have a problem with this.

Apologies for another long winded post.

Cheers.

P.S. For the Jazz Captains that want to find out who these college grads are so they can book off if they are paired up with them......1 down 7 more to go.

[Stinky]

http://www.saultstar.com/webapp/sitepag ... %20College

[Stinky]

This might be interesting but I'm too tired to read it.

http://www.atac.ca/en/files1/Final%20Re ... 0Study.pdf

[Cat Driver]

I agree CAT (nice pic do Pao De Acucar BTW). if properly trained yes, they can do the job. Currently, the training at Jazz is not geared for that. It will take time and $$$ to develop such a program. As soon as our Six Sigma Team and their infinite wisdom realizes that they will simply drop the program. period

.

Dark Helmet:

I was not condoning any airline hiring pilots fresh out of a training program when there are tons of experienced pilots who are avaliable and willing to fly for a fair wage and fair working conditions.

All I was commenting on was with proper training in a structured program you can get apprentice pilots who can fly in the airline enviornment and can be excellent command pilots after xx years.

The airline part of flying is a whole new ball game as newer more automated aircraft are brought into the fleet. The value of having flown thousands of hours in off airport northern operations produces skills and decision making that is really not all that cross transferable into a wide body computerized airline aircraft. The lack of this hands and feet experience that graduates of airline training programs such as now being run in other countries is offset by type specific training for airline flying.

For sure there is no simple one size fits all answer to these new age changes we see coming and there are going to be many pilots who will get very discouraged having worked for years with the dream of making it into an airline pass them by because bean counters choose to go the route of hiring right out of flight school and paying peanuts.

For many of you it is not a bright picture for the forseable picture.

[Red Line]

I think Jazz should subsidize the cost of training these clowns by creating a reality-tv series featuring their progression to the flight line. Heck, it would be twice as entertaining as this thread!

[Carrier]

1. You cannot BUY experience. You cannot TEACH experience. Experience is something that has to be EARNED by practicing some profession, trade, sport, craft or other activity over a suitably long enough timeframe, often under the supervision of an old master.
2. Even the above does not guarantee achieving the level of a skilled master as normal personal attitude and ability came into play. Well known sales trainer Jerry Bresser said: “We all know somebody who has been in the business for twenty years but who has only one year’s experience – repeated nineteen times!”
3. The cadet schemes overseas worked well many years ago when it was normal to have three or more experienced bodies in the cockpit. At least two of these were experienced pilots and the flight engineer normally held a pilot’s licence and was himself on his way up the pilot food chain from cadet. With two experienced pilots and a part-experienced pilot as flight engineer the cadet was effectively the fourth member of the cockpit crew. On long intercontinental flights with relief crews there were even more experienced pilots available in the aircraft. It was therefore fairly easy for these experienced pilots to take turns wet-nursing the boy pilot on board. Promotion in those days was not quick so a boy pilot had many years of opportunity to gradually acquire real (not textbook) knowledge from those experienced aviators he flew with. He witnessed and was part of experience-building situations where he was under supervision and did not have to make a real contribution that might affect the life-saving outcome because there were already enough experienced pilots to handle both normal operations and any crisis.
3. Since the reduction in the number of pilots to a two pilot is normal situation, overseas airlines have continued with bringing in inexperienced pilots. This has worked as long as things have gone well. However there have been enough crashes and mishandled incidents to question the practice. Because of their lack of experience such low time pilots have to fall back on their book training and there have been several occasions where thinking outside of the box as a result of experience would or might have saved the day but such experience was not available. A number of times it has been pointed out that an EXPERIENCED North American pilot would have handled such situations in a different manner as a result of his experience and the outcome would probably, but admittedly not always, have been more favourable.
4. Putting a boy pilot into the right seat of a two pilot aircraft effectively makes it a single pilot IFR situation. This is a heavy enough load for an experienced pilot to handle on its own, without the additional responsibility and distraction of effectively being an instructor to the greenhorn beside him. Creating such a situation obviously detracts from safety.
5. A little tongue in cheek, further to point 4 above, where a captain has to undertake such a dual role is Jazz going to give additional remuneration for the extra task and responsibility of also being an instructor, along with danger money for the decrease in safe working conditions?

[Red Line]

Putting a boy pilot into the right seat of a two pilot aircraft effectively makes it a single pilot IFR situation.

Well that's a little sexiest, Carrier, now isn't it? j/k

[Chuck Yeagermister]

Sitting in a RJ at Jazz wouldnt you feel embarrassed to tell the captain that you got 200 hours, and just graduated from a f#@king flightschool. Oh sorry 306 hours, my mistake. Man o Man what a kick in the nuts for ppl that had to work to get that airline job.

[small penguin]

I am going to venture a guess and say this, uhh, so called emergency was over somewhere in southern ontario where there are millions of lights and roads that are easy to follow.

Does location matter? Not really. It was on a cross country on the leg between Fredericton and Cape Breton.

As for the fact that it is a minor failure, I dont give a hoot, since Im not an airline pilot flying every day. Nor do I ever want to be one of those. Now let me ask you all how many of you encountered failures in flight away from home when you had less than 200TT. How did you react?

., how would the right seat feel after telling the captain that? If it was me, I'd feel proud. If the captain cant take it, thats his fault. We both would be working for Jazz and if the good 'ol pessimistic captain dont like it, he can quit.