Students and Radiospeak

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bb lint
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Post by bb lint »

Shiny Side Up wrote:It would seem we have a failure to communicate here;). When I was referring to RTFQ, I was referring to this:

[quote="I, I mean as an instructor I still can't afford brand name "Kraft" dinner so that usually keeps the ego in check
OHCHEEWAWA!
All I hafta say here is get used to the generic brand! With an attitude like yours , man, there may just well be a connection between your state of prosperity and the hand that feeds ya, bud. Suck up the ego, learn to love teaching students or get the hell out of instructing altogether. The field is far too competitive ..not much room for those who don't truly have a passion for what they do : ie turning out the best possible pilots out there... isnt that how the great schools and instructors in any field of study are made ?!.

(BTW I think Nordo posted well in another thread where he/she was trying to work out weight and balance....shouldn't there be somewhere in the POH's the weight and balance calculation for the instructor's ego?)

Quantity ($$) =<or> Quality
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Post by Shiny Side Up »

I love people who respond to but a single line out of an entire post. :)

Apparently I don't put enough of these :D or these :) in my posts for most of you to read between the lines, my bad. But for example here's what I've said so far:
I wrote:You're right in the fact that the standard training manual is inadequate. But on the other hand its one of those things you only learn by doing. I do, we do, you do. In other words standard practice should be the student listening to his instructor do radio calls on the first few flights, then the instructor guiding the student through them, then finally the student doing all the radio work and the intructor critiquing. And I've just given you the "benchmark" to study above. The keys to good radiowork isn't rote memorization, its listening and learning. Pay attention when your instructor is on the radio, and I usually will critique a particularly bad radio call we hear so the student knows what not to do (It never stops them, but you gotta keep trying) Lastly, I quiz them on what someone else is saying on the radio. I'll say it again: PAY ATTENTION.
In other words, I was actually agreeing with Hi Maint and trying to provide what ideally should be done on the part of the instructor and student to learn how to do proper radio work but I didn't see anyone quoting this. hmmm.
I wrote:No offense but if worrying about what people are going to say about you on the internet is what you're worrying about while you're flying: GROW UP!
Now here I've been taken completely out of context many times, and once again some good advice for our friend Hi Maint. What someone says on the internet is just heresay. You people take this stuff too seriously. And truth be told, I've had students who've brought these problems up in the past, it goes like this: "I was reading on the net that this guy says my cherokee handles icing very well and I was wondering..." Needless to say you shouldn't take everything here for gospel.

That's not to say you should take anyting I say for the truth either. Who knows? I might be some thirteen year old yanking your chain from my parent's basement? ;) (I can't wait for the next post that only quotes that!)

Read between the lines, in all my ranting you might find a Kernel of wisdom that you can use for yourself. Or at the very least it gave you other instructors something to read while you're waiting for your next student. ;)
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bb lint
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Post by bb lint »

Shiny
The middle part of of your quote was deleted for space saving purposes we all know what you have said...ad nauseum.
Irony of ironies that "you seem to have a failure to communicate" when you started this topic off with a complaint about everyone else's communication problems. It's obvious you have been so misunderstood by so many by your need to quote yourself and explain yourself over and over. Wonder about you as others have...I too doubt that you are a flight instructor. But I don't really give a ratsass about that.

There is merit to some information one could gain from the internet, IMHO though, not on this forum for new students. Which is why I directed a couple of them to other resources to assist them. Teaching someone to become a pilot is serious business. To think that one of them told me they found the link to this site from their flight school's web page! It might be useful for you, though, to get in some primal scream therapy or trip out or whatever it is you are doing here.
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Post by Shiny Side Up »

Ah, good, now you've caught on. :wink:
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Post by shitdisturber »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
Listen to what Shitdisurber had to say, he's very wise. :twisted:
When I get back to civilization i'm going to have to buy myself a new hat, my swelled head won't fit my old one after that! 8)
Having spent the day flying around at high altitudes listening to people on 126.7 repeating "conflicting traffic please advise" ad nauseum I reiterate; STOP IT!

By the way, Shiny is indeed an instructor; and i've seen some of the morons he's made pilots out of so he's not half bad.
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Post by ZLIN 142C »

There's no quick and easy way to get good on the radio - it just comes with practice and time. I know I've made a lot of stupid radio calls, thankfully not very often anymore, and sometimes the best thing you can do is laugh. I really like radiowork now. I get a lot of enjoyment of making complete and concise calls, and for me this is just part of being professional. Once you start to enjoy it, it gets easy.

Unwieldy radio practices? I've heard a few myself. Like guys who file their flight plan on 126.7 while airborne, made even more fun by their crappy radios. (Alpha Bravo Charlie, Edmonton Radio, say again, please?)

This is annoying to no end, but there's a difference between inexperience and sloppiness. The student needs to realize that while there is a proper form and language for radio calls, there really is no script. Once you sort of know where the line is, you can even have some fun. These are the important things to remember: be accurate, be complete, be courteous, and be brief. Strive for these things and you will come to enjoy radio work.

One other thing: if you have the chance, go talk to an FSS guy and find out what they look for in position reports etc., and what their pet peeves and piss-offs are. Talking to these guys has helped me immensely.
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Post by . ._ »

I heard one of the Snowbirds filing in the air once. I swear to god, it sounded like an ATIS broadcast! Not a wasted second, absolutely clear, and it took about twenty seconds. Perfect. The guy's name was, "I spell, Mike, Charlie, Lima, Echo.."

Great experience to hear that on my commercial cross country.

-istp
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Post by shitdisturber »

ZLIN 142C wrote: One other thing: if you have the chance, go talk to an FSS guy and find out what they look for in position reports etc., and what their pet peeves and piss-offs are. Talking to these guys has helped me immensely.
Unfortunately, due to the stupid security rules now in existance that's no longer possible. Was in an FSS office a couple of months back, won't say where cause the guy could literally get fired for letting us in there; they're not allowed to talk to you anymore except on the phone through the nearest FIC. I'm sure glad NavCanada is always looking for ways to improve service; talking to people and getting personal service is such a bother. :?
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

shitdisturber wrote: Unfortunately, due to the stupid security rules now in existance that's no longer possible. Was in an FSS office a couple of months back, won't say where cause the guy could literally get fired for letting us in there; they're not allowed to talk to you anymore except on the phone through the nearest FIC. I'm sure glad NavCanada is always looking for ways to improve service; talking to people and getting personal service is such a bother. :?
I find that hard to believe, considering one can schedule tours regularly of just about any Tower or Terminal facility.
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Post by Nordo »

shitdisturber wrote:they're not allowed to talk to you anymore except on the phone through the nearest FIC.
Again..you can pencil in tours (and should) you have to talk to the NavCan HQ, but it is not a problem. Im pretty lucky with the FSS guys here, they give me alot of leway when it comes to 'stoppin by.' One of our ATC's told me that tours arent allowed any more unless they are schedualed, but, if I were to stop by with acouple of students just to chat (as friends)....no problem. Hes a great guy.

When it comes to teaching radio speak, I find the biggest problem is teaching the format of the radio....WHO, WHERE, WHAT. Try this...when teaching little Johnny at first...just use the format in your class room and leave the aeronautics out for a few times. eg.

'little Johnny this is flight instructor Captian Cool.'

'flight instructor Captian Cool this is Little Johnny, go ahead.'

'Yea Little Johnny, Captian cool is standing in the front of the class room by the dry erase board, requesting to see the radio work homework sheet I passed out to you last class.'

'Captian Cool, Little johnny, your request is unable this time.'


It may be alittle cheesy to some but I find that it gets the format in their head, then when you add the aeronautical info on your flight they tend to think about what they are saying instead of trying to copy an instructor. But what ever works.

Also, I really dont remember a time when Ive been pissed off at somebody's radio work, embarresed for them sure, but I would rather hear people screw up radio talk and add alittle humor to the dry radio work of the proffesionals. Alot like this forum if ya know what I mean.

Now saying that I have very little tollarance for people who make inaccurate position reports...more so if they are one of my own students....that is unsafe; everything else is comedy and inexperience.
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Post by ZLIN 142C »

ISTP:

Point made; there are pilots who can file airborne and make it work. On the other hand, there are guys who definitely should not. I was referring to one memorable broadcast I heard where the pilot tied up the frequency for a full ten minutes before he and Edmonton were finished asking each other to repeat themselves. Funny as hell, unless someone really needed to use that freq.

On the subject of FSS access, guanorearranger, this seems to depend on which airport you go to. Some of the personnel are very by-the-book, but others actually appreciate visits from pilots, whether it's strictly kosher or not. Hopefully the FSS people at your airport are as accomodating and helpful as those I deal with.
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Post by shitdisturber »

Right Seat Captain wrote:
shitdisturber wrote: Unfortunately, due to the stupid security rules now in existance that's no longer possible. Was in an FSS office a couple of months back, won't say where cause the guy could literally get fired for letting us in there; they're not allowed to talk to you anymore except on the phone through the nearest FIC. I'm sure glad NavCanada is always looking for ways to improve service; talking to people and getting personal service is such a bother. :?
I find that hard to believe, considering one can schedule tours regularly of just about any Tower or Terminal facility.
That's the interesting flaw in the silly bugger rules, you can indeed still schedule tours.
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Post by lilfssister »

Last visit we had at my FSS was arranged by a phone call asking if they could come over in half an hour. I ENCOURAGE pilots to visit, and ALWAYS let them come up to see and hear what's going on on our side of the shop.
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