Flight School vs Aviation College

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Airtids
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Post by Airtids »

tailgunner,
Excellent points all around. Thanks for contributing (I know how intimidating it can be to wade into a discussion that has turned the way this one did :roll: ).

540,
What my point is, is that those 5-6 students from the FBO aren't competing for that ONE job, they're competing for ALL the jobs that are out there (everyone networks, look at the thread on folks who have been hired from this site as just one example) PLUS that one extra job that no one else has a shot at. This puts them ahead, no?
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Post by hz2p »

So bottom line, the difference is that you pay tens of thousands extra at a aviation college to make friends.

Or more correctly, for most people your parents pay $$$ for you to make friends.

Did your parents pay your friends before you went to aviation college as well?
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Last edited by hz2p on Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Disco Stu »

airtids wrote:What my point is, is that those 5-6 students from the FBO aren't competing for that ONE job, they're competing for ALL the jobs that are out there (everyone networks, look at the thread on folks who have been hired from this site as just one example) PLUS that one extra job that no one else has a shot at. This puts them ahead, no?
Not sure I agree with that. The students from the FBO aren't competing for "that one extra job that no one else has a shot at". You have said that you hire people from the "outside" as well as those you train. If clubs/FBOs hired ONLY those that they trained, well than your statement would be correct.

And I don't consider getting a job from the jobs posted site here as being "networking". That is like saying a waiter applying for a job in the classifieds is networking.

Sure this site is beneficial for job leads and such, but networking isn't reading a job post. It is making and developing personal relationships in my opinion. Meeting an itinerant pilot at an FBO once, and hearing that his company is hiring isn't networking either. Most people won't help someone get a job somewhere unless they have a good understanding of what someone is truly like. This doesn't happen after one meeting. Kinda off track, but oh well.
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Post by Airtids »

Stu,
The only time we hire from outside is if we don't have a candidate that is either suitable for, or desirous of the position, or if we have more positions available than grads to fill them :( . I don't think we're unusual in that regard. Clubs/FBOs hire their own as a preference, not a rule. I'm merely pointing out that if you train at a place that hires their own grads, you've got more options in the immediate future.
As for this site being a networking location, sure, if the candidate gets a position from the JOBS section only, then I agree, that is not networking, but rather good hunting. If, however, KAG posts that KBA is looking for a pilot, and you PM him, tell him you're interested and qualified, and he's familiar with you from the excellent postings made here by and about you, then by all means, THAT IS NETWORKING!! I t happens here quite a bit. Why isn't meeting and chatting with an itinerant pilot networking? When the Captain of an Air Tanker comes and hangs out here for coffee despite being pestered relentlessly by staff and students, is this not networking? What's your definition, and why don't these examples fit?
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Post by . . »

hz2p wrote:So bottom line, the difference is that you pay tens of thousands extra at a aviation college to make friends.
Sault college was $700/semister when i was there

$700*7 = $4900 for MIFR commerical licence.

You think that a FBO does it for "tens of thousands less"

Last time I checked FBO's weren't paying you to fly.

Since I left I think the price has increased to somewhere over $1000.
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Post by Airtids »

endless
What year? I tried to search their website for current costs, but no luck. Flight training costs, like fuel and insurance, goes up every year. A C150 went for $56/hr wet when I trained. Pushing $90/hr today. Please qualify your posting so we know we are comparing apples to apples. Any idea what Confeds program is worth today?
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Post by CLguy »

hz2p lets talk real Aviation Colleges. The real ones are the ones where you pay your tuition and the flight training is provided by their own flight department at no additional costs. Not the ones where some Flight School is piggy backing onto some College so they can rip off the poor pilot wannabee. As far as I am concerned those programs don't even qualify as a true Aviation College Program and should not even be discussed as such. At those ones you are nothing more than a College Student enrolled at a Flying School paying for your licences the same time you are attending college.

The tuition at Confederation College is $4200 per year. This is up to date because I just paid it. When I attended it was $475 per year. The students come out of there after 2 years with a Commercial Licence, Float Endorsement with about 25 hours of float time on a C-172 Hawk XP and a C-180. They also get about 10 hours of ski time on a C-180 and numerous hours on the only level 6 flight training simulator in Canada.

You do the math and tell me which is cheaper, a true Aviation College Program or a Wannabee Program where you not only pay your tuition for the College Course but another $30,000 for the licences as well.
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Post by . . »

airtids: within the last 5 years. Sault college some pretty amazing sims too.

Sault/Seneca/Confed are the only "real" college programs in ontario. Infact I think they're the only ones in Canada that provide the flying 100% free of cost.
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Post by Airtids »

That's one hell of a deal!! Gov't subsidized, I imagine?
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Post by pinkus »

Alot of intersting points.

I'll take a swing though.

There is no better way. Period! Some colleges are better than others, and some flight schools are better than others. Here is my take.

Full time integrated Aviation College. (Ie Seneca, Selkirk, Confed)

Pros:

Generally more experienced instructors.
Formal, structured program
Solid, safe equipment.
Sometimes government subsidized.
Substantially more ground school in specific aviation areas.
Excellent network.
Generally not for profit.
Strict Syllabus
Generally use and teach SOP

Cons:
money (sometimes)
Stigma attached to college grads.
Wearing stupid uniforms to school
Two years of your life

Non integrated College program:

Pros:
Structured program
Possibly more ground school
Excellent networking
Alot of fun to go to college
May be cheeper
Strict Syllabus (Sometimes)
Generally use and teach SOP


Cons:
Quality of airplanes subject to selected flight school.
Quality of instructor subject to selected flight school
Less aviation studies (could be a pro too i guess)
Stigma of being a college grad

Flight School:

Pros:

Possibly more one on one instruction
May be cheaper (live at home stupid)
Less time to complete and get a job (if you have the money)
Work while you fly to releive debt
Don't have to shake the snotty college grad thing.

Cons:

Possibly less networking
Airplanes may not be as nice
Possible lack of Sim's
Instruction quality can vary greatly
Possible lack of syllabus, may leave some learning untouched.

I apologize if i missed some items. I was just trying to put some of it in perspective. Some pros' or cons' may cross over here and there depending on the programs or flight schools. I have been to a flying school and hold an Av Diploma from an integrated college program.

I use the term integrated college program because as mentioned before, not all are the same. As is true with flight schools.

Another interesting point is something i learned after i completed school. After looking into the military, i became aware that they only accpeted learning from 8 or so colleges so that you could skip basic flight training. At the time, they would also pay for you to go to those schools if you continued to the military. I can't remember all the schools but i remember Seneca, Selkirk, UCFV, Confed, Moncton, Souix...

My personal experince with all kinds of pilots has made it clear that initial learning experience carries well into people careers. I have flown with excellent flight school grads and excellent college grads. The one truth i can come up with is this. It is all in their attitude towards flying. No matter what background. No school yet has managed to weed out the cocky bastards. Also, I have seen just as many cocky SOB's come out of flight schools as college. It's interesting that college grads are blown off as cocky, but usually after people learn that they went to college...

Anyways, my two cents.
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

pinkus wrote: Another interesting point is something i learned after i completed school. After looking into the military, i became aware that they only accpeted learning from 8 or so colleges so that you could skip basic flight training. At the time, they would also pay for you to go to those schools if you continued to the military. I can't remember all the schools but i remember Seneca, Selkirk, UCFV, Confed, Moncton, Souix...
All good points pinkus. Except the military thing which used to be true, now they'll take anyone with a commercial and you can skip basic flight training.

And BTW, it's Soo, not Sioux...BIG DIFFERENCE! :lol:
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Post by . . »

airtids: yep sault was 100% subidized.

one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the credits you can apply towards a degree. It's been awhile since I looked into it but there are some options.

Ryerson/Carleton university accepted many of the classes sault/seneca gave. I think you were looking at an addition 1-2 years to get an aerospace engineering degree. There was a similar program with an australian university. There was similar programs with embry riddle too. As far as I know Sault and Seneca were the only ones with these options. They were the only "aviation technology" diplomas out there. They included unhealthy doses of

Calclus
Physics
Dynamics
Mechanics
Electrical Circuits
Fluid Dynamics
etc etc
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Post by 4green »

not to mention you get a nifty jacket with your name on it :wink:

personally, i've worked the ramp and the dock. i also decided to go the college route- had a great time, loved the equipment, learned tonnes, made some good friends....and right now about 10% of my class is still in aviation.

in all honesty it doesn't really matter where you do your tickets. some people will get jobs from sending a cv, some will get one from helping a stranger with a flat on the side of the road who happens to be chief pilot somewhere, some will bust their hump on a ramp, some will be somebody's son/daughter/neighbour/dog walker, some will just get lucky. we're all in this gong show together and everyone will always have their own route. people can talk tripe all day about "whether a college/ftu grad will get a job first"- i'd say just do whatever makes the most sense for your situation, keep your nose clean and enjoy the ride. if you have a backbone and some semblance of a palpable personality it's just a matter of time before you land that job.
(no pun intended)
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Post by CLguy »

Pinkus, no goofy uniform at Con College and 4 Green no nifty jacket with your name on it neither. They train you to be a Bush Pilots not an Airline Wannabee.
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Post by Airtids »

And as we all know, it is far easier for a bush pilot to be an airline wannabe, than for an airline wannabe to be a bush pilot! :D
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Post by pinkus »

Airtids,

With all due respect, that comment is out to lunch. It is just as hard for a bush pilot to switch into a regulated, SOP governed IFR environment than it is for an IFR trained pilot to go into the bush. The same as for a a VFR float pilot going into an offstrip position. The same as an instructor going into a jet aircraft....and so on.....

Your connotation that bush pilots are better at everything is perhaps a bit silly. If a person wants to be an IFR pilot and learn that disipline of flying than why can't they do it? Is there something wrong if their choice is to not fly bush or not fly floats...? And please, don't start that.."well that is gonna be your first job...." stuff. It most certainly may not be. I know a ton of people that started out, right seat turbine pavement to pavement...Now now, before you jump on me...I understand that good bush skills and hands and feet are important. But so is good IFR. A good school will mix all of these.

Pinky
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Post by LastSamurai »

Couldn't have said it better....thanks Pinkus :D

G
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Post by Cat Driver »

Well I got to thinking about this comparison and my opinion based on roughly ten thousand hours flying in each of these enviorments is being an expert bush pilot is more difficult than being an expert IFR / airline pilot.

However that really means very little as both types of flying are not that difficult for the average human to learn.

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Post by pinkus »

Very true Cat.

Isn't it ironic that the lower the pay, the harder the job? $24000 a yr to fly a gross weight navajo or 210 and $200000+ to drive a bus that drives itself ILS to ILS.

I have never flown bush, but the times that I flew into unprepared or short strips, in bad wx...i realized that it is a tough go. I would rather be sipping a coffee, above 20 000 any day....

Pinky
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Post by Airtids »

Whoa, Pinkus,
Please read the comment again. The reference was to airline WANNABES, not airline PILOTS. I'm not sure where you (and 540 from the peanut gallery :P ) managed to get that I was comparing any one pilot's abilty to do a job, given their past experience. I took CLguy's comment to be a remark on ATTITUDE. I don't mean to be a dick, but it pisses me off when folks react to what they THINK they read, and don't really put any further thought into it before they post. It has happened a couple of times in this thread already, and really tends to detract from the discussion at hand. Maybe I need to spend more time making things painfully obvious so nobody has to actually think while they read, but then that might be a bit silly, and out to lunch. :roll: Here goes: What I was referring to by that comment was not the ABILITY to do the task, but rather a person's STATE OF MIND while that task is being done. A person who works in the role of a bush pilot (by far where the bulk of new pilots cut their teeth today, by the way), and sees themselves in that role, and likes what they see, will be a happier individual along the road to an airline position (if that is indeed where they end up going) than someone who works the role of a bush pilot, but sees themselves as an airline pilot (ie WANNABE) paying their dues on their way elsewhere. The former says "I'm here because this is where I want to be". The latter says "I'm here because I have to be here in order to get someplace else". One of them will have an easier time doing their job. Guess who? Read the post again (you too 540) and see if it makes sense now. Clear that up? Guess I should have used the word 'happier' rather than 'easier'. My bad :oops:

Additionally, I most certainly did not intend to convey that my opinion is that bush pilots are better at everything, and I'm not sure where you got that from either. :? I've flown enough as a captain, an FO, as well as single-pilot IFR (piston, to boot!!) to appreciate the skill-set that goes along with that operation. I too was one of the lucky few who started their career in that role- although times were different back then. :cry:
Along those lines, however, I will agree with Cat that by far the harder, more demanding job is the one in the bush. I still have days, single flights even, where I do both. Not having flown for a major, I'm sure their are headaches in that realm that I don't appreciate. But I'm sure someone will jump in here and take me to task for that, as well :roll: .

As for a good school having a mix of all disciplines, you're on the money with that. 8)
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Post by joebloggs »

Hi all, I thought I would jump in with my two cents. I came from a flight school Laurentide, when it was just that. The school went on tho join with a college and form a 'college program'. I went to 'said' college before I started my flight training. Education institutions are all similar in the fact that they promote an environment condusive to learning. My point is this. In every industry, you have people who get there just by going through the motions and scraping by, in other words they are lazy, and if it were not for the structured system that spawned them they would never have made it. Dont get me wrong, there are many, many more people who used the system the way it was meant to be used and now excel in what they do.
I have found that, after being in the industry different flight schools/programs turn out different kinds of pilots, bear in mind I am only giving examples from each end of the spectrum,which is important in this case. There are those who, no matter where they came from, they will succeed. Then there are those who are lazy, and the only reason they are in the industry is they were 'pushed' or just scraped by in the system (flight colllege). My point is this, pilots who came from small flight schoolsand have succeeded in this industry have that 'go get'em' attitude. In order to get your licenses this way you have to have more discipline than if you were 'in college'. I am uiversity educated, and I found that if you do not love to fly and want to do nothing else in your life as a career you will have a hard time getting through the FTU way. It will take more time and there is a greater chance you will never finish. I have seen quite a few people start out in ground school with me, and went nowhere. These people might have scraped by in a college program. So tell me, would you like to have one of these people flying you somewhere? Dont forget, these are mostly isolated cases, but I have seen a few. It's just that these people would not be in the industry had they gone the 'small flight school way' for the simple fact that they would wash out. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Cheers!
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Post by Airtids »

Wow! Freaky ironic that three months later this thread gets resurrected THE VERY DAY I go down to Selkirk's announcement of $2 million dollars worth of upgrades to it's aviation program (see my posting under Universities, Colleges, etc.)!! :shock: I swear I didn't post as joebloggs!

While I stand by my original feelings that the FBO route will facilitate one's entry into this industry (which currently is the biggest hurdle to overcome and which gets a lot of attention on this forum), I got a pleasant little eye-opener today about the College Programs, or at least Selkirk's: These really are little families! There is a level of fraternity that I never experienced at University (maybe to some degree within my faculty), and didn't really appreciate. Like I've said from the start, this program is great at what it does. Obviously there is some debate as to how much demand there is for what it does, or even the wisdom of our government continuing to subsidise the creation of a product that is in glut supply right now, but this is not the time for this discussion. Regardless, it was cool to feel the love! After 540's disparaging remarks about one of his Sisters, I was completely doubtful about the level of support these folks get from their alumni, and classmates, as has been suggested by others. This event restored my faith! :D

I understand now why the college proponents are sooo touchy about their beloved alma maters. I can only hope that graduates of my school are as passionate once we've been around for 35 years! Now I feel like the bad sheep of this family who's been talking about Old Uncle Albert's dirty little problem... But that still doesn't change the fact that he's got the problem. 8)
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Post by airway »

Here's my thoughts:

For background, I am a First Officer at a regional airline, flying the Dash-8. I have an Aviation Diploma from Mount Royal College, and Bachelor of Science Degree. I was a flight instructor for 8 years.

While I have no doubt that my post secondary training helped me get my airline job, I agree that it is probably little help in getting that typical first job.

Many pilots in my company, that are my age, started flying right out of high school at the local flying club. They are now captains, making twice what I make, and will be for many more years before I make captain. When they were hired there was not as much concern about Post Seconday Education, which there is now.

I was in school for 7 years while I could have been gaining hours and experience to get into the airlines.

If the airlines are your goal, you need to plan your training and employment choices (if you have any!) towards the airlines requirements.

Here are Air Canada's current requirements:

Flight Operations – Pilot

Whether a Captain, a First Officer or Relief Pilot, an Air Canada pilot's number one priority is to conduct each flight safely with due consideration to passenger comfort and on-time performance.

While the typical work month consists of approximately 80 hours of flying, pilots spend many additional hours on such ground duties as preparing flight plans, readying the aircraft for departure, and completing post-flight reports. A day's work may vary from a long-range international flight to a sequence of shorter domestic flights. Reserve duty, in which the pilot is "on call", may also be assigned.

Air Canada pilots operate out of one of the four crew bases: Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg or Vancouver. Base preferences are awarded in seniority so pilots must be willing to relocate as assigned. Pilots typically begin their career as a First Officer on domestic aircraft or as a Relief Pilot on long-range, international flights.


Job Requirements


To fly for Air Canada, pilots must meet certain basic requirements:


1000 hours of fixed wing flying time
Completion of schooling to the university entrance level. Ability to pass the Air Canada and Transport Canada medical and visual acuity requirements for a Category 1 medical certificate.
Canadian Commercial Pilot licence, current Instrument Rating and Multi-Engine endorsement.
Canadian citizenship or landed immigrant status.
Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

Canadian Airline Transport Pilot licence
University degree or college diploma
Aviation College diploma
Military or commercial flight experience
Jet and/or glass cockpit experience
Additional language(s)
Air Canada is currently interviewing candidates who meet these requirements. If you are interested in a career as an Air Canada pilot, please submit and maintain your profile using the link at the end of this document.

If I had to do it all over again, this is what I would do: (assuming I had the money to complete the Private, Commmercial, and Multi-IFR ratings in 1 year)

1. In High School, take the highest level (in order of importance) of Math, English, Physics, and French that you can. Take the university entrance stream. In my school it was called matriculation.

2. Do not start flight training until you graduate. If you do your flight training over more than a year you are wasting money in review flights. Take a discovery flight to make sure you REALLY WANT TO DO THIS, People who are not sure they REALLY WANT TO DO THIS are not going to make it. Put this flight as your first entry in your log book!

3. At least 1 month before you start training, get a cat. 1 medical. Start your flight training the day after you graduate from High School. Live with your parents if you can. Take 1 day, go to all the local flying schools. Check out prices, facilities, sims, and instructors. Often there are landing fees at larger airports, and delays waiting for Take Off. A smaller airport may be more cost efficent. Make sure the school has been around for a few years. Schools come and go, and when they go, they take the money you have pre payed with them.

4. Find a experienced full time instructor, preferably Class 1 (class 2 OK), who will likely be there for a year. Also have another one availible for back up. Stick with these 2 instructors for ALL of the flight training.

5. Treat the training like a job. At least 5 days a week, and at least 8 hours a day, and 2 flights a day. On bad weather days still go in and review, or read the Flight Training Manual, From the ground up, The AIM, The CAR'S, Canada Flight Supplement, Flight Test Guides (get the picture?) Start working on a good attitude, be a hard worker and a keener, be friendly with everyone, network, help others, ask questions, get your hair cut, dress "business casual", follow the rules, get a good nights sleep, eat well, don't drink too much, be humble, show up early, stay late.

6. A month before you finish training, get your resume out to everywhere they might be hiring low timers. When you are finished training pack up the car and visit every one of those places, and talking to as many people as you can. Get used to being rejected 99% of the time. Do not get discouraged, you will hit that 1% eventually. Ideally, right seat on a multi-turbine would be great (it happens at Perimeter), but if this isn't availible, building time is key. Get your ATPL ASAP

7. While you are looking for a job/ working, complete a Bachelors Degree through distance education ASAP (yes, I know it will be hard, but not impossible). A Diploma would be a second choice (Business Administration would seem to be a good one to me). Learn French. Enter everything in your log book carefully, and get it certified regularly. Start applying at all the airlines you want to work for right away, and update every 6 months.

Good Luck! As far as I am concerned, I wouldn't want to be doing anything else!
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Post by Airtids »

Gotta admit, airway, that when this topic popped back up, I was a little nervous as it tends to elicit some pretty strong emotional outbursts. That being said- EXCELLENT post.
One of the issues is that aviation offers SO many different possible avenues, that it may be hard to structure your entire training for one goal- that goal may change six times along your path. However, if you plan for the highest levels, and are well educated about what it takes to get there, I don't think you can go wrong.
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Post by airway »

Agreed Airtids,

Looking over my post again, I realize all the stars would have to line up for it to work, but you could modify it depending on funds, time, age and other factors, depending on your situation.
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