Aircraft Rentals

[valvelifter]

What about a flight school telling me I cannot fly their 152 without another check when I have been flying 172s on a regular basis? I would think that if I can handle a 172 and its procedures then a 152 shouldn't be a problem? Especially since I have over 100hrs on a 152. Of course they came back and told me the same insurance story. The flight school next door however told me I wouldn't need a check ride and that it was ridiculous....

[Ogee]

It is not true that insurance companies specify much at all about checkouts. Generally they may specify rental at the discretion of some supervisory person. You have a driver's license, you can rent from Budget without a checkout. There is an assumption of competence.

I know airplanes are different and that currency does come into it. Also, I've never seen a rental place that ever asked me for secondary ID to go with the piece of paper license I may have just found on the street. So seeing if you can fly is not unreasonable and seeing if you can control an airplane to landing or surviveable impact in a forced approach is common sense. No problem with that.

But a two hour checkout. No insurance company mandates that. There was an instructor back in this thread who said that his insurance company mandated a two or three hour check. I asked him for proof of that and he PM'd me and said that what it really was was that the company operations manual required such a checkout and that the insurance required the company to rent according to its manual. I'm sure the guy who PM'd me was saying what he did in good faith, but that doesn't mean the insurance company requires a three hour checkout. I've never heard of an insurance underwriter wanting a copy of an ops manual and taking the time to sit down and read it.

While instructors may believe it, they are basically transmitting a lie when they tell renters that their insurance requires a fixed checkout time. It is a lie that either the rental company originates, or the instructor perpetuates because perpetuating it means more jingle in his or her jeans and more hours in the logbook.

Perhaps the guy who started this thread would benefit if we started posting the names of rental outfits who rip people off with this lie.

[North of You]

I will start. I went to every one of the rental places in Kitchener Waterloo airport some time around July Aug. and they all gave me the same line. And yes, I did tell them about my hours.

[Ogee]

What are the names of those companies?

[Hornblower]

It turns out he was the only Jewish guy in aviation around Vancouver.
"

I guess you'd know that because ...? Do you keep track of all the Jews in Aviation in the Vancouver area?

I'm not a bigot

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not a bigot, ... but there would appear to be evidence to the contrary.

Shalom

[Ogee]

It turns out he was the only Jewish guy in aviation around Vancouver.
"

I guess you'd know that because ...? Do you keep track of all the Jews in Aviation in the Vancouver area?

Not any more. I've moved away. But when I did, there was only one.

I'm not a bigot

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not a bigot, ... but there would appear to be evidence to the contrary.

Depending on what you call evidence, there is evidence to the contrary on just about everything.

Shalom. Shalom? What does ski racing have to do with this?

[Hornblower]

Do you keep track of all the Jews in Aviation in the Vancouver area?

Not any more. I've moved away. But when I did, there was only one

You actually kept track of the Jews in aviation when you lived in Vancouver?????

I can’t believe that you would say that publicly. Are you sure the only reason you stopped was that you moved away? Or was it because you were accused of being a bigot?

Do you keep track of them where you live now?

[North of You]

[Louis]

Hello,

Checkouts at the school I instruct at work out this way:

The maneuvers list I have to follow for a new client, or someone who hasn't flown with us in the last six months:

-Normal take-off followed by an exit to the training area.
-Steep turns: 45° bank, 360° turn with proper HASELL check (or CALT, which has the same end result and works out better in French). Keep it approximately within PPL standards without putting us in a spiral and I'll be happy.
-Slow flight: straight and level plus a turn.
-2 stalls: power-off clean, power-off landing config.
-Spiral recovery
-Engine failure
-Back to the airport for circuits: I'll ask for an emergency or two shortly before calling tower, then a short field stop-and-go, a crosswind touch-and-go if conditions permit (might substitute to sideslips if there's no wind to get an idea), and a normal landing to finish.

This program can be completed in 0.9 or 1.0 if the pilot has sharp skills and wastes no time. "Average" PPLs often complete it within 1.2-1.4, maybe with an extra circuit or maneuver thrown in for good measure.

There's also a little open book exam that can be done before or after the flight at the student's discretion.

Someone who hasn't flown with us in the last 30 or 60 days will only need to do a handful of circuits. (30 if under 100 hours TT or 60 if 100+, which afaik we're the only school in the area to have.)

Checks in the 172 are valid for the 152, but not the other way around (at least until you do a "full" 172 check). We also have Diamond DA-20 Katanas (C1s) in our fleet. The rule in those multiple type situations: if you've done a "full" checkout on type A within the last year, but flew type B ever since, you'd only need a few touch and goes to rent out type A again.

North of You: Two things I watch out for in pilots coming from a long period of IFR flying is ease with VFR procedures, and flare height. The exercises themselves have not been an issue with this group, even if it might have been years since their last time practicing them.

I've been milked for a checkout once and while I did a few more flights at that school, first thing I did once I had to renew it was to call another school.

Goodbye,

Louis

[Cat Driver]

Louis, is there any consideration used for pilots who are obviously high time commercial pilots or say a high time flight instructor visiting your area who just wants to rent an airplane to take a friend or family member for a sight seeing ride?

Because it does not make sense to have high time pilots go through all that basic stuff like steep turns etc.

[Ogee]

Do you keep track of all the Jews in Aviation in the Vancouver area?

Not any more. I've moved away. But when I did, there was only one

You actually kept track of the Jews in aviation when you lived in Vancouver?????

Yes. It was easy. There was only one.

I can’t believe that you would say that publicly. I think that says more about you than me. Are you sure the only reason you stopped was that you moved away? Yes, I'm sure of that. Or was it because you were accused of being a bigot? You mean, did someone walk up to me one day and say "You Jew counting bigot, it's time you moved away." No, I don't recall that happening. I'm sure I would if it did.

Do you keep track of them where you live now?

Yes, but I have to. I'm the rabbi in our community.

[JAHinYYC]

JAHinYYC, it is more than anal it is taking advantage of people.

I just received the February edition of the AOPA Pilot magazine in the mail this evening.

I noted with interest that the article on page 44 titled "Safety Pilot" which was written by Bruce Landsberg (Executive Director of the AOPA Safety Foundation) which discussed a recent trip by the author to Hawaii and his rental of a C172SP during the trip.

His opening comment was that he took this check out as an opportunity to grade the thoroughness and proficincy of the check out procedure which is something he regularly does when on vacation.

Long story short, the guy has 5,000 hours, ATPL and his check on type with an instructor which included a "steep turn, a stall, slow flight, and several landings" back at the point of departure.

Is it possible that one might choose to view the pre rental check out as something that is, at worst, inconsequential and possibly beneficial rather than view it as perpetuation of a global conspiracy by instructors, school owners, insurance companies, Free Masons and Communists to needlessly siphon money out of the pockets of 10,000hr pilots?

[Louis]

Louis, is there any consideration used for pilots who are obviously high time commercial pilots or say a high time flight instructor visiting your area who just wants to rent an airplane to take a friend or family member for a sight seeing ride?

Because it does not make sense to have high time pilots go through all that basic stuff like steep turns etc.

There could be, I haven't been given that discretion yet so it's up to the owners.

Still, I like JAHinYYC's last paragraph about a checkout being inconsequential and possibly beneficial.

I see the checkout as a possibility of familiarizing yourself, if not with the aircraft, with the particularities of a given area. It's also a good opportunity to see different ways of doing things, both for the client and myself; this holds especially true as I instruct out of St-Jean, and get to do checkouts on pilots having trained all over Canada due to the military base next door.

Goodbye,

Louis

[Cat Driver]

Is it possible that one might choose to view the pre rental check out as something that is, at worst, inconsequential and possibly beneficial

Good question, my take on it is there has to be some common sense used in the check out rather than a one size approach fits all.

So if you were to give Bob Hoover or Sean Tucker a check out in a 172 would you insist they demonstrate a steep turn, a stall, slow flight and a couple of circuits to show you they know how to fly?

[Doc]

I won't be renting from you Louis. That's pure BS.

I'm still thinking of getting a 150. I'd rent it in 10 hour blocks. The check out will involve proving you have at least a PPL, and tossing me the keys to your Dad's BMW while you're out flying.

[Cat Driver]

Doc what really makes these policies so troubling is the fact that there does not seem to be any common sense in them.

There is nothing wrong with a company wanting to check out a new rental pilot, but it is insulting to a high time pilot who may have been flying before the kid with the instuctors license was even born.....

....On the other hand it might be worth it having to demonstrate a 45 degree bank turn and then ask the instructor if we could a couple of quick circuits....

.....all we would need is an airport with a long runway and no traffic and show the instructor a couple of left and right figure eight circuits that take less than a minute from touch down to touch down...then have them demo it.

Give them a break though and allow them a full five minutes to complete five circuits....don't want to be to demanding after all its all about how well you fly isn't it?

[C-GGGQ]

I agree that a lot of places have ridiculous requirements for rental pilots. That said I have seen airline captains incapable of landing a 172 nicely after only flying large jets for a while. They aren't used to landing below 100-150 kts let alone not even being able to cruise that fast. They over complicate it looking for switches that don't exist cause the downwind and landing checks are next to nothing in a 172, especially when compared to a 777 or something. Still even the most out of practice airline pilot I saw caught on after 3 or 4 circuits. Circuits 1 and 2 were um... interesting.

[ottawa,kan]

Boy if I could give Bob Hoover or Sean Tucker a check ride in a C-172 I'd keep em in the air for HOURS!!!!!! Think of the stuff I could learn.