I thought american beer didn't count

[Mr. North]

Static

I never did an illegal drug in my life, and I come to a complete stop at every stop sign.

[YWGVOR]

Static

I never did an illegal drug in my life, and I come to a complete stop at every stop sign.

So you're the one I'm always swearing at that stops and counts to 3

[Guest295]

Static

Truth is you were suspended THREE times. None were for violating the CARs or damaging an aircraft, but all were for poor pilot decision making. You make it sound as if your suspensions were all in the name of safety, this is not true either, and there were other ways to deal with every situation you encountered that lead to you being suspended.

I am very disappointed in the way you turned out as a pilot. You were a very good cargo worker and held you head high all those long years you worked on the ramp. You were an excellent first officer who could fly and were a pleasure to work with every day, but when you became a captain it was as if there was something in you that just snapped and you became “That Guy”, the person that no one wanted to fly with. This is really not how I wanted to see you turn out, and I wish you could just step back and see what bitter person you have turned into.

When you bad mouth Perimeter, you are insulting the very company that gave you your start in aviation. Not only that but you are insulting all the people who work there and all who worked there in the past.

[The Hammer]

Guest

Thanks for clearing up why aviation is so fubar'd!!!

The #1 place to hear complaining/bitching about PAG is probably the staff pilot room not the internet.

Your employer and you have a business agreement. The boss makes money from your work and then shares a little bit with you, nothing more nothing less.

The loyalty factor gets far more employees killed than it benefits.

[Static]

Static

Truth is you were suspended THREE times. None were for violating the CARs or damaging an aircraft, but all were for poor pilot decision making. You make it sound as if your suspensions were all in the name of safety, this is not true either, and there were other ways to deal with every situation you encountered that lead to you being suspended.

I am very disappointed in the way you turned out as a pilot. You were a very good cargo worker and held you head high all those long years you worked on the ramp. You were an excellent first officer who could fly and were a pleasure to work with every day, but when you became a captain it was as if there was something in you that just snapped and you became “That Guy”, the person that no one wanted to fly with. This is really not how I wanted to see you turn out, and I wish you could just step back and see what bitter person you have turned into.

When you bad mouth Perimeter, you are insulting the very company that gave you your start in aviation. Not only that but you are insulting all the people who work there and all who worked there in the past.

I'm so glad you can put such a positive spin on an awesome lie. Suspended twice. Officially suspended for NOT extending my duty day beyond 15 hours. This is on paper, signed by the chief pilot. If you wish to call my decision making POOR I invite you to come for a beer within your 8 hours. I also invite you to join a right base at an uncontrolled airport. So, shall we argue about whether poor decision making is 1) electing to cause the company some difficulty by bringing notice to the fact that they push things TOO close to the limits? or 2) doing something 100% illegal just because everyone else does it? My decision was not to push the limits that close, I was faced with a simple choice; obey the rules or let it slide. Maybe someone takes off one day with a just bit of frost on their wings, or they're certain they have enough gas to just barely make it to their destination...I elected to avoid these problems by leaning on the safe side. So, let's move on

That fact that I disappoint you brings such a large tear to my eye. I spent my entire life trying to live up to everyone else's expectations...especially you, I wish I could have been more like you because my purpose to being a pilot is that everyone will say "i'm so proud of you." *sarcasm meter explodes*

Now...last but not least...I love how the words you have used are identical to those i heard before I quit...nobody wants to fly with me...
The very morning of my last (second) suspension, I offered a dozen or more names (in a moments notice) of people who I guarantee would say they want to fly with me. So I asked what I thought was a fair question; Why do some people not want to fly with me? Because they have to study their job the night before since i WILL ask them questions about it? Because I hold a high standard and if people are lazy they will hear about it? Because if they do what they NORMALLY do, I will have a problem with their complacency? I can also guarantee you that those people who DID like flying with me had high standards for themselves, obeyed the rules as well as they could, and they knew more things than those who did not like flying with me. Why do I have to be so tough...like asking someone during a night medevac flight, shortly after take-off "what would you do if the engine failed right now?" Why is this something that is difficult to deal with? It will happen when you are tired, and thinking that nothing will happen.

I probably should have been the pilot who just assumes everything will work out, and not prepare myself for the worst case scenario...that's far less safe.

So again...I iterate... I WAS NEVER SUSPENDED FOR DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR UNSAFE, I was suspended for inconveniencing Perimeter. I'll take that any day. So back to bashing Perimeter...Let's not lose focus here...I am bashing them for not taking action on unsafe matters, such as operations to dangerous airports causing airplanes to slide off the side ($350,000 damage?) and for allowing 3 pilots to continue working after consuming alcohol on duty.

I have a big problem with that. I made others aware of my feelings because I'm the type to do that.

Lastly, I'm not insulting everyone who works there, and has worked there. I am insulting those who fall in the category of unsafe, or dangerous. I'm bad mouthing the managers who allowed (and contributed to) these activities by either no action or improper action. If that made me 'bitter' as you say...meh...I really couldn't care less. My SERIOUSNESS and bitterness have been simply mixed up.

Stepping back, with a new company, I see that not much has changed, yet captains enjoy working with me, and spending multiple days paired up with me. Flight attendants get along with me very well, and I don't get grief or poor remarks from my new co-workers. The environment at Perimeter is poisoned. There is angry negative atmosphere and almost non-existant company morale. This was not always the case either. In fact up until 1 year ago I was prepared to stay at Perimeter for a lifetime. Once the managers began taking everything from us, I began to wonder. There was (and still is) no consideration for the employee there. They set employees up for failure and provide little to no tools. So many times they have sent me up north, resulting in a missed approach at destination (not because of equipment limitations, but because of co-pilot qualification limitations)...where do I go...how about my legal alternate? NO, this won't do. If I go to my LEGAL alternate it inconveniences the company. Why? Not because of the fact that I didn't make it to destination, but because my take off is now limited from my alternate. Why didn't we have some guidance? No...they want to hold the pilot responsible for making a decision that inconvenienced the company even if it was the best decision possible choice. How about filing all airplanes at the same speed every day of the year? How about when they say the speeds have been changed, then ATC violates the pilot for exceeding the limitations? Another set up.

So, I won't go and call this conspiracy theory or anything, but they don't take responsibility for their poorly executed actions.

Enough said...

--Static

[Mr. North]

Wow this guy's a real straight shooter watch out!!

[TR]

Yes, what crazy company would expect pilots to make good decisions?

Your posts sound like you trying to convince yourself that you are good enough, you are smart enough, and ghosh darn people still don't like you.

If you feel better by belittling your former company, managers, and co workers, thats fine. Go right ahead if it makes you feel better. The industry is small.

Believe it or not there are alot of pilots out there that respect safety as much as you do, however they don't believe they are the know all and be all of safety.

I wish you the best of luck at your new job. Please be done with your Perimeter bashing, you are not part of it anymore, it does not concern you, and it is not appreciated. You did leave on good terms.

Go on your way, there is no need to stop by and say hi.

For the rest of you Ex Perimeter pilots out there, please stop by anytime.

[sky's the limit]

When someone like Static is left on such an island, it certainly makes one wonder....

I know nothing of Perimeter and their Operations or their pilots, but this little pissing match is following a hugely familiar pattern.

Three sides to every story, heard two so far...


stl

[Captain Crunch]

can't we all just get along?

[RatherBeFlyingInCanada]

Everyone needs a hug.

[Static]

Yes, what crazy company would expect pilots to make good decisions?

Your posts sound like you trying to convince yourself that you are good enough, you are smart enough, and ghosh darn people still don't like you.

If you feel better by belittling your former company, managers, and co workers, thats fine. Go right ahead if it makes you feel better. The industry is small.

Believe it or not there are alot of pilots out there that respect safety as much as you do, however they don't believe they are the know all and be all of safety.

I wish you the best of luck at your new job. Please be done with your Perimeter bashing, you are not part of it anymore, it does not concern you, and it is not appreciated. You did leave on good terms.

Go on your way, there is no need to stop by and say hi.

For the rest of you Ex Perimeter pilots out there, please stop by anytime.

So, we remember saturday night live...I don't need to convince myself of anything. It's very simple for me, I don't need to decide if I'm going to follow the rules, I just do. Decision making is very simple. Maybe a bad decision is to bring the plane back within my duty day, maybe a bad decision is to unload the oranges then spend the night in island lake. Maybe a good decision is to take off without sufficient duty day left to make it to destination, have some sort of incident, be investigated by transport, and then reprimanded by them. How convenient for the company.

NEXT...

It does not concern me? When I see such a FARCE in the paper coming from the GM, it DOES concern me. How could something as BLATANT as drinking and flying be played down to 'boys will be boys' for the love of Jeebus. Had it not been for a small group including myself, nothing would have ever been done. I do not believe I am the be all and end all of safety...but people who literally ignore all the warning signs then still go off and attempt to fly humans around, that makes me SICK.

Maybe I left on good terms, and I appreciate you seeing past the fact that I'm not bashing Perimeter (sarcastic again...)...but I'm bashing you, your gm, your cp, and those who follow in your footsteps by breaking rules, NOT the whole company and those who take safety seriously.

By the way, does "the industry is small" mean that you are threatening me? Because I love that. Like your threat to keep me from the left seat for refusing to return to duty without completing a full duty rest. And the former chief flying instructor telling me to "make the numbers work" in front of you.

So, we want people to fly over weight, to airports that are unsafe, without sufficient gas for an alternate. We allow people to consume alcohol while on duty...who are YOU to speak of safety? Maybe the 'perimeter bashing' scares you...and you want it gone...maybe all this exposure threatens YOU. I wish I could take credit for informing the press of the suspension...because I'd feel that I did a public service.

Most people are happy to have left, and these days, people who haven't even been there a year are leaving. Welcome them back will you? Happy people stay and your repeated abuse of human beings will continue until they have nowhere else to go or you've parked so many airplanes that you will personally fly 27 straight days to keep a positive income.

what you SHOULD have done was ACTED when people told you that something was wrong. You have to LISTEN to those who are affected and you should put yourself in their shoes once in a while. Promote doing things safe and the right way rather than giving someone crap for taking an extra 30lb in a gas guzzler.

What I don't understand is why it took so bloody long for you guys to do anything about the drinking and flying? Unless you don't believe it was a big deal? And why was it going to be brushed under the rug? Why were you willing to let so many people leave over the incident including the most knowledgeable metro pilot Perimeter had? Maybe you can answer these questions for EVERYONE to see.

--Static

[Mr. North]

So.. like, when the CFI told you to fudge the numbers... did you do it?! I hate being asked to do that, since I'm really no darn good with math!

[Static]

So.. like, when the CFI told you to fudge the numbers... did you do it?! I hate being asked to do that, since I'm really no darn good with math!

No!

--Static

[Disco Stu]

Static,

Get off your soapbox, please.

I was NEVER asked to fly over weight. I was NEVER asked to change my alternate. I was NEVER asked to violate my duty day. I was NEVER asked to do ANYTHING illegal. 5 1/2 years.

Abiding by the regs is one thing. Being ANAL RETENTIVE is another.

You aren't going to find a lot of supporters amongst the ex-PAG crowd......

You are even making enemies amongst the AC pilots. It's never a good idea to tell a 25 year Captain how the jumpseat policy works......

[Static]

Static,

Get off your soapbox, please.

I was NEVER asked to fly over weight. I was NEVER asked to change my alternate. I was NEVER asked to violate my duty day. I was NEVER asked to do ANYTHING illegal. 5 1/2 years.

Abiding by the regs is one thing. Being ANAL RETENTIVE is another.

You aren't going to find a lot of supporters amongst the ex-PAG crowd......

You are even making enemies amongst the AC pilots. It's never a good idea to tell a 25 year Captain how the jumpseat policy works......

I never attempted to tell anyone how the jump seat policy worked, so I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

I was asked to reduce my fuel, to use illegal alternates, and to 'make the numbers work' when it came to my duty day, i was even asked to fly an airplane with fire warning/fire bottle bush buttons cross wired. There is anal retentive and there is 'caving in' I prefer to stand my ground on what is right.

I can make all the enemies in the world, nothing will ever make me step down from fighting for the right thing. There are far more people who will 1) sit and do nothing and 2) join the 'cool' crowd and just fall into the complacent way of life than take my side. I don't really care since I didn't become a pilot to make friends. If that holds me back...so be it...but I'll never compromise my morals to get ahead in the world. Maybe your best friend the ops manager is upset because of the exposure he's getting these days, and the fact that this forum is still up, but I know you believe that he made a big mistake with regards to these drinking pilots. Now, whether he's learned anything from that mistake is to be determined.

I remember us working together, and I remember you teaching me a lot of stuff, especially on the Baron which I'll always appreciate. Maybe you believe that I 'snapped' and became some pilot who you regret helping, but I assure you, I took the responsibility very very seriously. I did make it my life to know as many rules in detail as possible which ultimately became a great inconvenience to Perimeter. They like it when you don't know anything and just do what they tell you.

I'm perfectly happy doing what I'm doing right now...and I wouldn't have put up such a fuss about this if it didn't hit me in such a soft spot.

--Static

[Static]

Guest295;

By the way, in regards to poor decision making, maybe we should now make light of your SUPERIOR decision making skills when you had to declare two fuel emergencies. I've never had to do that even though you claim that I make poor decisions. In fact, I can't think of any other recent Perimeter pilots who have had to do that besides you.

--Static

[Mr. North]

Boy, all sorts of dirty laundry in this thread!

[Zero-Zero]

The suggestion that the Captain should have not departed and rather should have called the Fargo Police and FAA shows how little pilots know about the rules in the USA. Had the Captain called in the Feds as is suggested would have resulted in several ugly reprecussions.
First, the 3 pilots would have been arrested and charged with a clear violation of the law. The last time a crew (NWA 727 ) was caught in similar situation by coincidece in Fargo a few years ago, when the dust settled the captain got 5 years in jail and needless to say all 3 lost their jobs.
Secondly the 2 Metro's would have been seized and a lenghty and costly process would have ensued for their release.
Thirdly Perimeter would have lost the DHL contract.
Now do you still think the Captain should have called in the Feds ???

Interesting thread. I agree that zero tolerance is the only answer. Period. If your job isn't worth passing up even 10 beers, perhaps you should find another vocation.
Please allow me to contribute with a few observations though: 1) Re; the quote above. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I could be, but at what point were these crews guilty of a criminal offence? If the police were called prior to start-up, are they not just three guys who drank a beer 7.5 hours ago? If they had not yet operated the machine under power, did they in fact commit an offence? 2) I feel infinitely safe knowing that there are so many omong us who are perfect! I hope that your Ego dosn't block your view on approach. 3) CYA (cover your a##) Amazingly there is no shorage of rats who will happily bite it!

[Static]

[/quote]

Interesting thread. I agree that zero tolerance is the only answer. Period. If your job isn't worth passing up even 10 beers, perhaps you should find another vocation.
Please allow me to contribute with a few observations though: 1) Re; the quote above. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I could be, but at what point were these crews guilty of a criminal offence? If the police were called prior to start-up, are they not just three guys who drank a beer 7.5 hours ago? If they had not yet operated the machine under power, did they in fact commit an offence? 2) I feel infinitely safe knowing that there are so many omong us who are perfect! I hope that your Ego dosn't block your view on approach. 3) CYA (cover your a##) Amazingly there is no shorage of rats who will happily bite it![/quote]


The regulation states that one must not ACT AS A CREW MEMBER, if they were acting as a crew member (walk around, flight plan, starting engines etc) within 8 hours of consuming alcohol, they are guilty. If they are sitting in the cockpit of an airplane without the intent of operating it as a crew member then the airplane will be operated illegally.

Thanks...they're guilty.

--Static

[bobcaygeon]

Static,

You are even making enemies amongst the AC pilots. It's never a good idea to tell a 25 year Captain how the jumpseat policy works......

Actually Disco Stu a newhire isthe probably the only one at AC/Jazz that understands the jumpseat policy. If you been there a year, it's probably changed twice and if you been there 25 years, you just don't have a hope of remembering what the flavour of the week is.
(like everything else in the Red team world).

Ps Even I can remember the "good old days" when the J/S policy was "skirt above the knees & cleavage showing" (Sure made a 4 day'r a lot better when flying with a "Crusty")

[TheEvilTwin]

Wow... sounds like a lovely place to be employed.... I think we just hired one, and rumor is there are alot more looking...

I'm curious as to where the problem is that everyone keep leaving... it can't be helping their problems much , and the busy season hasn't even started yet!

ET

[Capt Kirk]

I think you have it all wrong. 3000 hour captains on a metro can be replaced in the snap of a finger at Perimeter. Quite an accomplishment.

[Guest295]

Guest295;

By the way, in regards to poor decision making, maybe we should now make light of your SUPERIOR decision making skills when you had to declare two fuel emergencies. I've never had to do that even though you claim that I make poor decisions. In fact, I can't think of any other recent Perimeter pilots who have had to do that besides you.

--Static

I never had any fuel emergencies when I worked there.

[boeing boeing]

TR writes
For the rest of you Ex Perimeter pilots out there, please stop by anytime.

[black hole]

Wow this is a great post.
I think that everyone agrees that zero tolerance is the best. I also think that if the management were doing their job; a layover policy for Fargo was in order identifying the drinking issue, and I think that if some pilot were abusing the 8 hour or 1 beer that maybe the should have been taken asside and brieffed on the consiquences and if the problem reoccurs then they would be booted in spades. From What I have read hear this was an ongoing problem an management let it exist.Just a thought

BH