Wow, there are a lot of opinions out there. Might as well throw mine in here as well.
As boss_hawg said, perhaps a little more care should have gone into researching your future career before jumping into it with both feet. As an Engineer, I knew there would be times of standing out in the snow trying to get an airplane going, changing cylinders on some God forsaken lake with no name but lots of biting bugs, 4 years of training and exams and on and on. But the good times are usually better than the bad so here I stay.
Yes, the wages suck, the mentality is horrible and sitting on your ass for 8 or 10 hours a day must be hard ( I havn't figured that one out yet but I am sure someone here will let me know after this ) but you knew all of this going into it. If you didn't then you are an idiot and deserve everything that happens to you.
If I was hiring and had a choice between someone who most of their time sitting beside a student flying around in circles or in the right seat going back and forth between Toronto and Montreal compared with someone who can take care of himself and his aircraft because he had to when flying into remote little s**t hole in the middle of nowhere, you do the math.
True, the abuse given to new pilots at the hands of some owners in way over the line but until there is nobody willing to prostitute themselves out to get into that seat, it will not change.
I applaude you for standing up and trying to change the system because it does need to change. What I am tired of is the incessant whining and complaining because 'I am a pilot and I am so hard done by, somebody come and clean up after me' attitude that gets no one anywhere but pissed off.
That is my 2 cents...
Paying your Dues!
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Wrench monkey
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golden hawk
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Well again, this board proves itself to be unique...We're all boiling with opinions!! 
Bandaid, I agree with you but, you were sweeping floors while being a paramedic. Did they ask you to clean their toilets for 2 years before getting PPCed right seat into an Ambulance????
This is my point. The crap we feed young pilots to get them to do our chores for a few years.
I see no harm in doing maintenance work, cleaning around the hangar, loading airplanes, but don't you think sitting for a few hours right seat seems also like a positive addition to this "Paying your dues"?
I have 3 dentist friends and they went through hardships as well, but they all fainted when they heard about the "Paying your dues" hardship!! Can't compare, I'm sorry! I just can't believe that everyone actually thinks that other professions pay their dues like piloting (Maybe some do, but they fall into the same pitiful basket as aviation)!!
No one is taking your little 200 hours Rats away from you!! Keep them busy! But get them also into their future business...
I think there is room for improvement in this area. Like someone said, it has gotten way out of hand!
Bandaid, I agree with you but, you were sweeping floors while being a paramedic. Did they ask you to clean their toilets for 2 years before getting PPCed right seat into an Ambulance????
This is my point. The crap we feed young pilots to get them to do our chores for a few years.
I see no harm in doing maintenance work, cleaning around the hangar, loading airplanes, but don't you think sitting for a few hours right seat seems also like a positive addition to this "Paying your dues"?
I have 3 dentist friends and they went through hardships as well, but they all fainted when they heard about the "Paying your dues" hardship!! Can't compare, I'm sorry! I just can't believe that everyone actually thinks that other professions pay their dues like piloting (Maybe some do, but they fall into the same pitiful basket as aviation)!!
No one is taking your little 200 hours Rats away from you!! Keep them busy! But get them also into their future business...
I think there is room for improvement in this area. Like someone said, it has gotten way out of hand!
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
Theres been talk of the industry beeing swamped with new blood ready to take the reigns. I wonder if part of this problem is the flight schools. They advertise aviation as this great and wonderful place. they fill their classrooms beyond capacity. They tell you the whole time your there that the job market is hungry for new people. When you get out you find it to be a little different.
When I went to MRC my class started with 55 students, but there was only supposed to be 45. Turns out MRC expected 10 people to drop out by the end of the first semester, then when they didn't, we had a very distubing speach from one of the instructors encouraging people to drop out. SAD! I'm curiouse if anyone else experienced this sort of thing?
When I went to MRC my class started with 55 students, but there was only supposed to be 45. Turns out MRC expected 10 people to drop out by the end of the first semester, then when they didn't, we had a very distubing speach from one of the instructors encouraging people to drop out. SAD! I'm curiouse if anyone else experienced this sort of thing?
While flight schools bending the truth about the state of the industry is unarguably poor... it's hard for me to believe that that alone contributes much to a flooded market, as far as job candidates goes.
Most of us got into this 'cause we'd dreamed of it since we were knee-high to a grasshopper... would you have given up if your first instructor had told you that there are too many pilots and a lot of hoops to jump through before--and if--you get to where you want to be? I think that that's the root of why so many operators can get away with treating us questionably... we're in it for the love of what we do, and not 'cause we thought it'd be a lucrative career!
Obviously that's not always the case and everyone's got their own story, but by and large I'd say this goes for most of us...
about the state of the industry is unarguably poor... it's hard for me to believe that that alone contributes much to a flooded market, as far as job candidates goes.Most of us got into this 'cause we'd dreamed of it since we were knee-high to a grasshopper... would you have given up if your first instructor had told you that there are too many pilots and a lot of hoops to jump through before--and if--you get to where you want to be? I think that that's the root of why so many operators can get away with treating us questionably... we're in it for the love of what we do, and not 'cause we thought it'd be a lucrative career!
Obviously that's not always the case and everyone's got their own story, but by and large I'd say this goes for most of us...
Why would you expect the flight schools to tell prospective clients that "your chances of making it to the right seat of an airliner are about the same as making it to the NHL"? Would you expect the Chev dealer to point out to you that "Ford trucks actually last longer, have more horsepower, use less fuel, and are in every way better"? NO!! That is your job as a consumer. My job is to market my product (a program that simply creates outstanding, safe pilots) as best I can. In our situation, morals and ethics get involved and we end up being brutally honest with our students. Sure, in some cases it ends up costing us a (disenchanted) student, but I believe that in the long run we're better off because the ones who DO choose to pursue the profession with their eyes wide open are generally happier, and are bigger proponents of our school, than someone who was sold a dream that turned into a nightmare.
We have NO idea what a prospect is wanting when they walk in our door. Maybe they want to learn to fly in order to open up their own fishing lodge, or for simply recreational purposes. Why should I try and dissuade them? Maybe the guy who walks into the Chev dealer simply likes the way they look. If you're looking for some institution to blame for selling the masses an empty dream of an Airline Captains future, look to the institutions that are training 200 hour Airline Captains.
As has been pointed out previously, it is this failure to do research which causes the bulk of the problems at this lower level in the industry that so many here constantly whine about. I have no sympathy for the fools who bought some marketing line about sitting in the flight levels, sipping Colombian coffee, chatting about their golf handicaps, while pulling down $300,000/yr, and 'working' 14 days a month with free passes to go wherever they want for the other 16 days. You hear that line, and that line only, and tell me how hard it would be to sacrifice for a dozen years to get there! We'd all do it. Many of us, however, know that picture is not realistic for the masses.
"Paying your dues" is either the penalty for not doing your research, or it is the work you do to justify the wage you make at the end of your sucessful climb to the top, however you'd like to look at it. Either way, it is a result of too much supply. Who's to fault for that? How many would go into nursing if you saw that there was no demand for a different profession that pays well.
We have NO idea what a prospect is wanting when they walk in our door. Maybe they want to learn to fly in order to open up their own fishing lodge, or for simply recreational purposes. Why should I try and dissuade them? Maybe the guy who walks into the Chev dealer simply likes the way they look. If you're looking for some institution to blame for selling the masses an empty dream of an Airline Captains future, look to the institutions that are training 200 hour Airline Captains.
As has been pointed out previously, it is this failure to do research which causes the bulk of the problems at this lower level in the industry that so many here constantly whine about. I have no sympathy for the fools who bought some marketing line about sitting in the flight levels, sipping Colombian coffee, chatting about their golf handicaps, while pulling down $300,000/yr, and 'working' 14 days a month with free passes to go wherever they want for the other 16 days. You hear that line, and that line only, and tell me how hard it would be to sacrifice for a dozen years to get there! We'd all do it. Many of us, however, know that picture is not realistic for the masses.
"Paying your dues" is either the penalty for not doing your research, or it is the work you do to justify the wage you make at the end of your sucessful climb to the top, however you'd like to look at it. Either way, it is a result of too much supply. Who's to fault for that? How many would go into nursing if you saw that there was no demand for a different profession that pays well.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Yoyoma,
I was one of the lucky ones, I was hired almost out of high school. We have members out there now making $2.00 an hour carrying a pager and doing whatever they can do to make ends meet until they can get into that Ambulance seat full time. So to answer your question, in some cases, yes.
I have talked to the wannabe hose jockeys (fire fighters) that put in all sorts of time at the fire halls without wages cleaning toilets, sweeping floors, and kissing a$$ to try and get noticed for that next full time hire.
You have to be really sure that flying commercially is what you want to do and I think that the information that is available here for those wanna be pilots out there is very important, cuz you know that's not what the training schools are telling them.
I have spoke many times at career fairs over the years and for the most part I tell those that are interested in my career to look at other Provinces as getting on here is like finding hens teeth. I usually tell them about the 85%divorce rate, the working weekends, and the being tied to a pager as well. Go figure, their is still a line up for my job.
I was one of the lucky ones, I was hired almost out of high school. We have members out there now making $2.00 an hour carrying a pager and doing whatever they can do to make ends meet until they can get into that Ambulance seat full time. So to answer your question, in some cases, yes.
I have talked to the wannabe hose jockeys (fire fighters) that put in all sorts of time at the fire halls without wages cleaning toilets, sweeping floors, and kissing a$$ to try and get noticed for that next full time hire.
You have to be really sure that flying commercially is what you want to do and I think that the information that is available here for those wanna be pilots out there is very important, cuz you know that's not what the training schools are telling them.
I have spoke many times at career fairs over the years and for the most part I tell those that are interested in my career to look at other Provinces as getting on here is like finding hens teeth. I usually tell them about the 85%divorce rate, the working weekends, and the being tied to a pager as well. Go figure, their is still a line up for my job.
