Mass exodus at Wasaya

[Doc]

How bloody wonderful for you! Wasaya "uses" pilots as slaves. Pilots are either too stupid or somehow sucked in to thinking this is Okay. It ain't. Go get a flying job. Stop sucking up. You spent a whole bunch of money and time to lern to fly...so FLY!!!

[TenForTwelve]

That is true, but working the ramp is not where you learn the things you need to learn to become a good safe pilot.

Cat, I don't always agree with you, but you hit the nail on the head with that one. XS alluded to this as well. Making guys work the ramp to "see what kind of worker they are" is horseshit. It seems to me that if someone needs to work the ramp to prove themselves the HR people or CP or whoever does the hiring is doing a shitty job. If you do your homework and hire the right people then you don't have these kinds of problems. Why not hire non-pilots to work the ramp? That way, there is no backstabbing, politics, BS associated with trying to be the next one on the flight line.

Oh yeah, I know why. It's because pilots will work for half or less of an off the street worker.

Who's the real dumbass here?

[xsbank]

TenForTwelve, you got it.

Why don't the rest of you get it?

[Red Line]

OK, then let's help theses guys out. Can someone post a link for a job ad where a 703/704 company is willing to hire a 200-hour pilot with no experience? (and of course not have to do any ground work) There should be at least 10.

[trey kule]

So redline, if no one can post a link, then indentured slavery is ok...is that the point you are trying to make?

Flying along on "empty legs etc.,. I assume that is after some training is done. Otherwise, in my opinion it is just going along for the ride. Fun stuff for the new kids.....and...and.....I suspect they are logging it.

[pt6vstpe]

Here's a good story for the ones who don't want to leave home to get a job. I started doing my training in the western part of canada and was at the same pace as a friend of mine. We both worked at the airport for a fueling company while we did our flight training. He was gung ho to stay with his girlfriend and home in hopes to get a job there. I moved to 2 other provinces to finish my training, got a great first job flying a single piston for about a year, and eventually got on flying a twin turbine. 1.5 years after I moved to finish and find a job, I flew into my home airport. Who greeted me at the planes door as I opened it? The same friend I went to school with. Still working on the ramp fueling and an IFR thats about to expire. Go where the opportunities are!!!! Don't wait for one to fall into your lap, cause it ain't gonna happen.
Thanks for listening!
PT6

[tellyourkidstogetarealjob]

I'm just a lowly AME but it seems the indefinite ramp duties ritual is kind of like meeting a lovely girl you think could be marriage material. You go out on a 1st date and, sure enough, she's everything you want in a partner. During the evening you become more and more convinced you've found someone you can share your life with. But, you want to be sure. Offering her a ring someday is a major decision. So to be absolutely certain you bring her back to your apartment, open the door for her, take her jacket from her and hang it up thoughtfully. Offer her a refreshment and compliment her for the wonderful company. Then throwing old sweatpants and shirt at her and making the bitch clean your toilet in order to, "start at the bottom and prove she deserves the position".

Seems that way to me, anyhow.

Telly

[pinecone160]

.

[Pile-it]

Pilots.. We are our own worst enemies...

[CLguy]

You Wannabee's just keep quiet and keep digging the salt out of those mines because this isn't the 21st Century or so it seems in Canadian Avaition!!!

[Hedley]

I had no idea slavery was still legal in Canada.

[xsbank]

Just to hammer the point home, I have knowledge of a 205-hour pilot from Europe who is currently in class for a Challenger 605 type rating; he will be right seat for one of Europe's largest jet charter companies. You guys just keep working away on cleaning those crappers, get it real shiny to show that arrogant band of morons how great your work ethic is. A shiny crapper is a real good indication of what a fantastic pilot you will be.

They probably had to train you to clean a bog, right? Why won't they train you to fly? Its probably because without a pilot license, you could not hire someone to clean crappers as cheaply as you!

Stop throwing those bags (shove one up the *ss of your current chief pilot) and get a flying job!

Another little gem: if you are not checked out where you are by May, you are probably hooped until next year, because they will be too busy in the summer to train you and hardly anybody will get checked out in the winter - frequently, along with poor weather, they lay off in the winter. One more year.

How about the 'oil crisis?' One airline lays off in Canada and the music stops - you might as well get your name engraved on that bog-brush because it will be your future for, maybe, YEARS.

Its time to stop this cycle of exploitation, its time to stop this process that teaches you good and young that if you don't look out for yourself you will get screwed and exploited. Its companies like Wasaya that teach pilots that its OK to bail out and go to another company for better conditions and bigger planes and its companies like Wasaya that try to undo the harm they've done to the industry themselves by requiring training bonds.

The management at Wasaya are just as rotten as Voyageur's, who are just as rotten as... you get it.

[futboler14]

It was not to long ago that I was looking for my first job. After my first year of my Diploma program, I had the oppurtunity to finish up my flying and get my CPL completed for the summer months, or going north and working the ramp for a couple months tossing bags till the next semester started and getting a "foot in the door" with some company. I made a tough decision to take out a 25K loan that summer and get my CPL done. At 205hrs under my belt I was in the right place at the right time (and yes, a lot of luck) a company was looking for a c-172 to do some aerial surveying for the summer. They asked if they had a pilot that could do it and I was offered the job. So while I was out flying over Alberta, Sask, Man and, Ontario, my buddies were working the ramp with their respective company "dangling the carrot" in front of them and being promising a flying job.

After I was finished my Diploma program I used the money from my loan to again get my flying (multi-ifr) completed. I put out resumes all over that wer offering and not offering jobs. I wanted anything but a ramp job. I was offered two ground based jobs with very respectable companies and again I took a gamble and respetivly declined the offers because I knew my skills were more valuable than throwing bags. Sure enough a week or so later I was hired by a company that offered me a Medivac co-pilot on a Navajo/ Evening dispatcher. I took the job and now have been with this company for just over 3 months in which I have logged close to 100 hrs. I have a hard work ethic, learned a ton about the industry and the company, I am now being rewarded with a right seat in a turbine with 500 hrs.

I realize I have been extremely lucky with my entry into this tough industry, but my point is that I could have elected to work the ramp at many points in my career ladder, but I took some risks and I am happy to say that I have never tossed a bag to get where I am today. Out of the around 20 classmates I had, there is only 1 other that has moved from the ramp onto a plane so far.

I undertstand that this would be very rare many years ago but like others have posted earlier, things have changed, and I was not going to accept a ramp job unless it was absolutly my last resort. If the music ever stops, I'm comfortable to be where I am.

Thats just my opinion

[RFN]

I agree that "pilots are our own worst enemy".
One of the biggest reason for this is a deeply ingrained sense of entitlement. Most pilots I know have it. I know I sure do.
Here are some examples I have now, or have had myself.
1) I went to flying school (or college) and therefor I deserve a flying job. - No more so than any other graduate of any other type of school.

2) I should never have to work the ramp, because I'm a pilot. - You're not a pilot yet. You are licensed to be one, that's all. No one up North knows whether you are a idiot or not. Flight schools, and especially colleges do not weed out idiots; they weed out poor people. Why should Wasaya, or any other company experiment with you on their multi-million dollar equipment, with their paying customers in the back?

I worked the ramp for Wasaya in YRL. I was fortunate to do less than a year, and in 2002-03 that was VERY lucky. I hated it. I thought some of the pilots were assholes. They thought I was an idiot. We were both right, and the time we spent working together in YRL went a long way to solving both of those problems.

It would be fantastic if pilots could get a flying job right off the hop, but that's not always possible, and as long as Wasaya had the integrity to hire off the ramp instead of from outside (can 'o worms there, I know) then working the ramp is not that bad at all.

Someone also said it was "slave labour". Good god, it sucked ass, but it is still much easier than the work that a solid chunk of Canadians do every day, without the light at the end of the tunnel that we have. It also paid pretty damn well to boot.

[Rudy]

What kind of changes have the pilot's union brought about so far?

Other than the infighting over the Pilot Seniority List (PSL), The Union Dues, and the Resistance by Certain Management? Nothing!

Talks are supposed to go underway in about a week from now (May 14th). Changes in the contract won't be seen till the end of the summer, maybe even as late as mid-september by my guess.

Really? How much of your cheque goes to dues?

[Cat Driver]

2) I should never have to work the ramp, because I'm a pilot. - You're not a pilot yet. You are licensed to be one, that's all.

Yeh, that makes sense.....but please tell me how many hours of mindless manual labor do you need working on the ramp to hone your flying skills to become a pilot?

No one up North knows whether you are a idiot or not. Flight schools, and especially colleges do not weed out idiots; they weed out poor people

.

True they sure don't weed out the idiots or these companies wouldn't have them working on the ramp.

Why should Wasaya, or any other company experiment with you on their multi-million dollar equipment, with their paying customers in the back?

Why?

Is it because their pilots are so poor they can't pass on their flying experience to the new hires flying in the right hand seat....so they need to do manual labor to be pilots?

[Doc]

Cat, one question. Who is the total MORON that you quoted? Must be one of the idiots the flight schools or colleges failed to weed out.

[Cat Driver]

Doc, its not the fault of these young kids.

They are victims of a culture that sees nothing wrong in demeaning young people through using their dreams of becoming pilots to do manual labor for wages that no construction worker would dream of doing for the pay they offer.

If I were chief pilot for such a company I would refuse to hire off the ramp and make it clear to any ramp employee that if they hold a pilots license they will never get a job as a pilot as long as I was chief pilot..

I wonder how many chief pilots in todays world would do that?

[Rudder Bug]

I am very sorry for all these young guys being offered a job on the ramp after investing themselves, so much money and years of time to be responsible of the toilets.

There is nothing wrong in training a Wannabe around the ramp for A LITTLE WHILE, like the first week at work but yes, rampies, loaders, groomers and fuelers shouldn't be required to qualify as professional pilots. We must be the only country in the world where employers dare to abuse qualified low time pilots to that extend.

The best rampies I've seen were non-pilots. They are not frustrated to be on the ground because they don't qualify to be in the air and they are happy with what they're doing for what they're paid. Period.

[Grey_Wolf]

Really? How much of your cheque goes to dues?

As of right now 1.95% of your gross monthly earnings. Since pay is based on mileage and minimums; If you make more than minimums, you pay more accordingly.

For example, a year 1 PC-12 FO that's making mimimums is seeing about 35-40$ being docked off the pay.

[kevenv]

Then throwing old sweatpants and shirt at her and making the bitch clean your toilet in order to, "start at the bottom and prove she deserves the position".

Telly

wish I had seen that BEFORE I got married!

[Reality Checker]

Self entitlement, those two words sum it up for me on this issue. How about this, Chief Pilots hire pilots, Base Managers or whatever you wish to call them in your operation hire ground staff, loaders, whatever you wish to call them. I've looked at the Wasaya website under careers and current positions available, they list some pilot positions and they list some "ramp attendant" positions. Seems pretty clear there is a separation between the two jobs. Read the two job descriptions, the ramp attendant positions being offered in both locations Red Lake and Pickle Lake make no mention of flying as one of the duties, right seat C208B or otherwise. To all the ground folks crying about being abused and being some form of slave labor ....who hired you?...were you paid by the hour for the services rendered? Overtime, did you get paid for it? Do you get full medical benefits and a pension plan? Were you forced into taking the job and did they chain you up at night? I can answer all those questions, The base manager, yes, yes, yes and of coarse not. There are two ways to approach this. Hire direct entry C208B co-pilots with wet ink on the paperwork or wade through the applicants and hire ground staff...the fact remains 250 pilots apply for ground jobs as a way to be in the right place at the right time. Its an informed choice they make, they are hired knowing they are applying for a ground job with no guarantees, seniority number or any other promise of ever making it onto an aircraft. The issue with hiring the direct entry person as I see it...this is a C208B job, it hauls cargo primarily for Wasaya, thats done single pilot to maximize payload because its unit toll cargo. They operate passenger trips two crew. There is far more cargo than people so the available flight hours are limited. Remember this is a business, its goal is to be profitable not produce pilots. How do you compensate the entry level co-pilot given he will only see a limited number of hour each month? Should they receive the same minimums as the PC-12 co-pilots? After all they are both just over sized single engine aircraft with auto pilots and all the bells and whistles. Or do they simply fly a little bit and spend there considerable off-time on AvCanada complaining about starving on poverty wages? Bet my paycheck that they approach the Chief Pilot and ask if they can work on the ramp to generate a little more income. Somebody else made mention of Hs-748 guys having to fly the PC-12 on days off to make extra money. Well the truth there is that it was there choice! They work a rotating schedule and in some cases still current on the other type, they asked if they could make themselves available on their days off to make more money, you are implying that they don't get paid enough and have too and thats simply not the case. This where self entitlement comes into it, he gets hired by the base manager for a job that says nothing about flying, yet they get there and immediately figure they have a number and count the movement around them figuring they are entitled to a flying position when they think their number is up. The 703 gig in many operations is a maximum duty day type operation, long days and long rotations. In the interview process what do think the average person will answer when asked about endurance or stamina. Picture this, Chief Pilot...we work some long days here, not uncommon to do 20 or more legs in 14 to 15 hour day...we schedule you for 20 on and 10 off. Have you ever worked those kinds of hours? Are you mentally tough enough to deal with the decisions necessary to be able to handle this type of workload safely? Pilot...No problem...I'm a rock and a safe as they come, I've got PDM, CRM, Human Factors training, the whole ball of wax...my school prepared and I'm Transport complaint in all aspects of aviation. Perhaps companies like Wasaya are doing these guys a favor, if they can't handle 8 or 9 days in row loading an aircraft or sweeping hanger floors without complaining about being tired or over worked what the hell is going to happen to them on day 15 of the tour and its the 10 straight day of IFR? I say it provides a company a look at how well people hold up under a little pressure, far less than what they will get exposed to in an aircraft on a long day. Don't blame the employer for your choices! You own them...

[Cat Driver]

[xsbank]

Me too, ., its a lost cause.

[Doc]

Yup. Nice thought process. You really NEED to be able to load airplanes, sweep hangar floors,.....you left out, run the Boston marathon, compete in Ironman Canada, swim the English Channel......all to prove you can "hold up under a little pressure"...you sir, are a Twat! "20 or more legs in a 14 or 15 hour day....." Yah...keep smoking that crap!
You sound like the Penis Fish!