Seneca College Baron Gear Up Landing

[SAR_YQQ]

Damn - I can't find the emoticon that depicts the bag of popcorn.

[CD]

[Cat Driver]

This is for all the cool aid drinkers here.

[Doc]

Dump on Cat all you guys like. Bottom line is very simple. There is NO excuse to land an airplane gear up during training. Seneca really needs to deflate it's collective "big head" and revamp it's entire training system, because there is very obviously a very large flaw in it. Do they really NEED to train in Baron 58's? I don't know if Cat has been waiting for something like this to happen to say..."I told you so...." But, I know I have.

[Hedley]

You just can't buy entertainment like this.

[rigpiggy]

rigpiggy: You should know better than to stick your nose into family business.

In my family, right about now I'd have put you down in a flurry of uppercuts, that is if the first headbutt, hadn't split your skull.... But don't worry your family I'll make sure you get to Emerg, and laugh at it the next day

[bornagain1340]

I'm with most of the other posts here...gear up regardless of what type of training you're doing.
Learning to fly a mutli-engine a/c with only 100 or 200 hours is a big enough pill to swallow without adding a few "adopted" procedures that only apply in certain situations to save money. Not a great way to learn.
No matter where you fly to, chances are pretty good that you'll have to fly a circuit. Once you're in that circuit and things are getting busy, it's a familiar scenario...gear IS down....because you've been trained to leave the gear down.
I don't want to speculate or point fingers or sound like a know-it-all, I just wonder how a place like Seneca can expect to produce a properly trained pilot when they're not being trained properly?
I wish the best for the two pilots involved and hope they get back on the horse...shit happens and fortunatley no one got hurt. Take the experience, learn from it and move on.

ps. I think the 'S' in the GUMPS check stands for "Seven minutes from now I'll be standing on the dock holding a cold beer."

[LCEOPS]

Gear down? What happened to the checklists?? I assume there are 2 people flying. I'm not judging......but the Seneca pilots are usually pretty high on themselves....yes and sorry! Oh well, hopefully they are all right, dust the debris off there shoulders and fly again. Isn't this like the second accident in a while? I thought they creamed into some planes landing into YKZ?? maybe I'm wrong. I hope they are still able to insure?????? I'm in Florida and out of the loop. Hope everyone is ok!

[Strega]

Checklist aside,

are the Seneca instructors that unfamiliar with their planes they cannont determine the position of the gear with respect to its added drag?

How can this instructor instruct on this plane, when in fact, they cannont even fly it properly themselves?

[BoostedNihilist]

If they do indeed have a gear down in the circut policy, besides the obvious problems I see another one as a consumer...

If I am paying 'x' amount for a retractable twin, if I am not allowed to use the gear position selector switch I want an effin discount!

I wonder if any of these students have complex single training before they strap on the twin.

[AntiNakedMan]

How can this instructor instruct on this plane, when in fact, they cannont even fly it properly themselves?

That's true of most instructors and aircraft, no?

[AntiNakedMan]

I wonder if any of these students have complex single training before they strap on the twin.

While helpful, it is not necessary. After 1000 hours in twins I still have yet to fly a complex single....

[Big Pistons Forever]

How can this instructor instruct on this plane, when in fact, they cannont even fly it properly themselves?

That's true of most instructors and aircraft, no?

How many instructors have you flown with ? And for this supposed majority who you deem cannot fly the aircraft properly, do you honestly have enough experience to even be able to make that judgement....

[Strega]

How can this instructor instruct on this plane, when in fact, they cannont even fly it properly themselves?

That's true of most instructors and aircraft, no?

How many instructors have you flown with ? And for this supposed majority who you deem cannot fly the aircraft properly, do you honestly have enough experience to even be able to make that judgement....

In this case, would you say the instructor that was the PIC on this aircraft, flew this plane properly?

[Flaperons]

I might say the exact same thing about crusty old past-their-prime arrogant know-it-alls such as yourself.

Past my prime huh?

Lets see now....I still have a valid ATPL and an Air Display Authorization for flying in in the air show business in Europe.

You ever gotten that far as a pilot skills wise flaperons?

Valid ATPL, eh? Woohoo! God knows it's so difficult to keep one of those current. All that means is you haven't blown your medical... yet. Did you make sure to nudge the DFTE to ensure he was awake on your recurrent ride?

On the air show side: No Cat, I do not have an Air Display Authorization for the air show business in Europe. Perhaps, however, I'll look into it when I'm 50. I'm sure when I have the time and disposable income to pursue such a thing, I will do just fine. (And yes, I do have aerobatic training under my belt.) Just a thought, Cat: Since when do your certificates bear any reflection of your actual skills? Seems to me all you did was display an average level of proficiency in the required maneuvers to achieve said "Authorization". Good for you. Now go to bed, it's after 9pm.

rigpiggy: You should know better than to stick your nose into family business.

In my family, right about now I'd have put you down in a flurry of uppercuts, that is if the first headbutt, hadn't split your skull.... But don't worry your family I'll make sure you get to Emerg, and laugh at it the next day

This is impressive. Are you actually threatening to punch me out behind the safety of a dork board? Riggyfiggy, shut the f*ck up. God you're a loser. Thank God I'm not a member of your family. What was it? Late-night-sneaky-uncle? Or did dad just not pay enough attention to you while he was pounding mom in the face? Pathetic, really.

Checklist aside,

are the Seneca instructors that unfamiliar with their planes they cannont determine the position of the gear with respect to its added drag?

How can this instructor instruct on this plane, when in fact, they cannont even fly it properly themselves?

Strega: Read my tagline, you're embarassing yourself.

If they do indeed have a gear down in the circut policy, besides the obvious problems I see another one as a consumer...

If I am paying 'x' amount for a retractable twin, if I am not allowed to use the gear position selector switch I want an effin discount!

I wonder if any of these students have complex single training before they strap on the twin.

The students get somewhere between 50 and 75 hours on the Bonanza before they touch the Baron. Is that enough for you?

Hey Cat! What are you still doing up? I thought I sent you to bed. Want some warm Ovaltine to help you go beddiebys?

[Strega]

Flaperons,

Try as you might, you CANNOT justify a gear up landing of this sort. Forgetting the gear all the way through the flair to "scrapedown" is simply incompetence. What would you call it?

[Flaperons]

Ah shit, Cat! I forgot to make fun of you about the "cool aid" thing. Now my whole flow is ruined. Oh well... Anyway, it's not "cool aid", it's "Kool-aid". That's okay, my man; as we age, our synapses stop firing as accurately. I forgive you for this one old-guy blunder.

Lullaby, and good night,
With pink roses bedight,
With lilies o'erspread,
Is my baby's sweet head.
Lay you down now, and rest,
May your slumber be blessed!
Lay you down now, and rest,
May thy slumber be blessed!

Lullaby, and good night,
You're your mother's delight,
Shining angels beside
My darling abide.
Soft and warm is your bed,
Close your eyes and rest your head.
Soft and warm is your bed,
Close your eyes and rest your head.

Sleepyhead, close your eyes.
Mother's right here beside you.
I'll protect you from harm,
You will wake in my arms.
Guardian angels are near,
So sleep on, with no fear.
Guardian angels are near,
So sleep on, with no fear.

Lullaby, and sleep tight.
Hush! My darling is sleeping,
On his sheets white as cream,
With his head full of dreams.
When the sky's bright with dawn,
He will wake in the morning.
When noontide warms the world,
He will frolic in the sun.

[Strega]

Ah shit, Cat! I forgot to make fun of you about the "cool aid" thing. Now my whole flow is ruined. Oh well... Anyway, it's not "cool aid", it's "Kool-aid". That's okay, my man; as we age, our synapses stop firing as accurately. I forgive you for this one old-guy blunder.

Thanks! now we know what he was talking about!

[BoostedNihilist]

Me

BoostedNihilist wrote:
If they do indeed have a gear down in the circut policy, besides the obvious problems I see another one as a consumer...

If I am paying 'x' amount for a retractable twin, if I am not allowed to use the gear position selector switch I want an effin discount!

I wonder if any of these students have complex single training before they strap on the twin.

Some other dude:

The students get somewhere between 50 and 75 hours on the Bonanza before they touch the Baron. Is that enough for you?

More than adequate for me, but if it is possible I hold myself to a higher standard.

So, after fifty hours of using a gear switch, blue handle and checklist they still managed to forget the gear? At this point I don't think the training is the problem, clearly it is the students.

are the Seneca instructors that unfamiliar with their planes they cannont determine the position of the gear with respect to its added drag?

lol

"gee guy, I think we're coming in a little fast"

[Strega]

Boosted,

Not only did the student forget the gear, The instructor (who was the PIC) forgot the gear as well!

I think its a hoot!

[BoostedNihilist]

Boosted,

Not only did the student forget the gear, The instructor (who was the PIC) forgot the gear as well!

I think its a hoot!

So much for self preservation... doesn't anyone care about their own ass anymore?

my mom who hates planes knows that the gear should be down before the plane...

I told her about this, she asked how it could happen... I told her it's okay and it could happen to anyone..


she said anyone who is stupid

The students get somewhere between 50 and 75 hours on the Bonanza before they touch the Baron. Is that enough for you?

Depends, do they get to retract and deploy the gear?

I was actually considering seneca... but I hear they also have a 5knot xwind limit.. I don't think I have ever been flying with less than five knots xwind component.

My question, this guy get a wheels patch on his jacket? or do they just cut the arms off?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Sigh....Avcanada continues it graveyard spiral with another ruined thead...

[BoostedNihilist]

sigh....Avcanada continues it graveyard spiral with another ruined thead...

awwwe poor wittle baby want some cheese wit dat whine?

[AuxBatOn]

Here's what I think about that accident.

Running a big flight school like Seneca, accidents will happen, even though they shouldn't. The important thing is that Seneca won't turn a blind eye on the accident and will actually take measures to mitigate the training risks wrt gear up landings (ie: make it a SOP that you WILL cycle the gear on every circuit, except in an emergency/gear malfunction).

There was a gear up landing here on a Hawk a few years ago. We already have measures in place to prevent such things like checking the gear twice with tower on the final call. Since then, they re-opened what we call the "tasker shack". Basically a guy in a little shack with a radio on Guard and Towers Freqs and a flare gun. If he sees an airplane about to land gear up or doing a Gear Up approach (even for a low approach) that has not been approved by tower, he will fire the flare and every aircraft will overshoot. For the interested, here's a link to the FS reports http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/dfs/re ... 16-eng.asp

That example was just to show that even in a very flight safety oriented buisness (the military really is FS oriented, which is a good thing), incidents/accidents happen. The important thing is to take measures to prevent them in the future.

AuxBatOn

[Strega]

What a crock,,

forgetting to lower the gear is an utter display of stupidity, whats next? pilots that "forget" to close the throttles when landing?