Jazz losing their C2's

[Brick Head]

Localizer

The cold hard truth? ACPA is just trying to protect what it has. Yes Jazz has been used in the past to negatively impact the ACPA CA. If they are no longer available for the task. Others will willingly line up.

The predominant belief is that a protectionist stance is the only viable option whilst also realizing it won't work. All it does is slow down the momentum. A realization that even if ACPA corrected everything that is wrong with its relationship with Jazz, other pilot groups will willingly move in to fill the void. IOW whip saw is not preventable even at the wide body scale. All we can do is try to manage it. (Scope) This stance puts the AC pilots, all major carriers for that matter, at odds with anyone else doing flying for the respective major carriers.

The only solution is an everyone solution. Not just in the same union. It would require an international association that dictated wages to all employers, for every A/C type. This association would need enough teeth to enforce min wage and working conditions on all employers and pilots alike.

Not likely.

But that would be the dream and really the only real solution. Everything else is a band aid. Without it there will always be someone, locally, nationally or internationally, willingly (or having no say in the matter depending on the law of the territory) offering to do it for less.

Leaving the present group doing the work only one option. Protectionist through scope.

[Localizer]

The cold hard truth? ACPA is just trying to protect what it has. Yes Jazz has been used in the past to negatively impact the ACPA CA. If they are no longer available for the task. Others will willingly line up.

Its kind of hard to sit back and look at the whole picture and think ... "this is the best we can do" ... after almost 30 years this is the best we can come up with. No better than the generation before us .. just continue the good fight. Sounds like we need new thinking and a new game plan because the status quo only continues to help managment .. so why not steer a new course?!

The reason an international (union/association) won't work is because of mainline carriers. They don't want to jump into any trenches with anyone else .. the reason being is they think a dollar might fall out of there pocket. They aren't willing to risk losing a thing to get everyone on the same page. Jazz is a good example to people working together to achieve something .. ie the merger between Nova, Ontario, BC, and CRA ... pretty seemless transition with not too much fuss. Lots of people gave up seats, money to make this happen .. so it didn't come without sacrifice. But how many times has the seniority list been reviewed and challenged at AC since the Cdn merger? How many guys walk the hallways in airports with that stupid OACP (Original Air Canada Pilot) sticker on there bags? Or how about the senior pilot group selling out the junior pilot group to save there wages? (oh because they are protecting those wages for you one day .. doubt it highly with the first unmanned flight only a year or so away.)

I believe the time is now for change .. (borrowed that off Obama) .. If we don't get ahead of managment and get everyone on a united front ... I won't even speculate ... but I hate the thought of what this industry is going to look like in the future.


Cheers gents ....

[Brick Head]

Its kind of hard to sit back and look at the whole picture and think ... "this is the best we can do" ... after almost 30 years this is the best we can come up with. No better than the generation before us .. just continue the good fight. Sounds like we need new thinking and a new game plan because the status quo only continues to help managment .. so why not steer a new course?!

Agreed. What course? Cause I think it is a pipe dream. Harsh? Reality?

The reason an international (union/association) won't work is because of mainline carriers. They don't want to jump into any trenches with anyone else .. the reason being is they think a dollar might fall out of there pocket. They aren't willing to risk losing a thing to get everyone on the same page.

Yup Mainline pilots all over the world are evil individuals for trying to retain their pay, working conditions and jobs. Evil evil evil.

There is no way to get everyone on the same page unless we have the ability to police ourselves. We are our own worst enemy. The solution is not one of voluntary compliance. ACPA could strike a deal with every pilot group in Canada but without enforcement the first group to be shown a carrot by management will jump out of the boat. right? If it is not Jazz it will be Georgian or CMA or Pasco or Porter.........

We have no legal ability, even if we all wanted to, to create an association that could police the entire profession.

So what do you do?

Face it. Someone will always be willing to do your job for less and there is nothing we can do about it. As a matter of fact in a capitalist state it is a god given right. The introduction of CPA providers has made it worse. The competition between providers in the US has driven down wages and working conditions, forcing other carriers that compete with them to follow suit. Now it has spread north of the boarder.

[mattedfred]

BH,

surmising that jazz or CMA would be the group to leave the new collective for greener pastures is hilarious given the past practice of our brethren at AC

and the concept is known as a college of professional pilots just as dentists, physicians, social workers etc etc

[Brick Head]

BH,

surmising that jazz or CMA would be the group to leave the new collective for greener pastures is hilarious given the past practice of our brethren at AC

and the concept is known as a college of professional pilots just as dentists, physicians, social workers etc etc

You missed the point. someone will. The point was not meant to surmise who it might be.

I am fully aware of what has been proposed and what it is called. All those organizations are professional standard boards of oversight and licensing. Not one of them dictate wages and working conditions. It would be beyond their preview to do so. It will, if the college of pilots should happen, be beyond our control as well. A college of pilots is not a panacea that will fix the downward professional spiral before us. The college of pilots will remove a license for incompetence but do nothing to an individual for under cutting a colleague in an effort to take their job.

Next idea?

[teacher]

A good way to start would be some kind of fee guide that many professional colleges publish as to the minimum acceptable billing for said procedure or service. Standardizing pay and acceptable working conditions would be a start. The policies are not policed however going against them is STRONGLY discouraged.

It would be a start......

[Brick Head]

Teacher,

Agreed. But our situation is far more complex being that it is international. Open skies agreements are slowly removing any protection our boarder has provided in the past. Last week Mr. Harper said we can expect a new open skies agreement with the EU shortly.

How do you strongly encourage a pinnacle pilot making 18,000/ year who's company is bidding on part of the AC CPA?

How do you strongly encourage a pilot group in a third world country with no labor laws?

A Lawyer in Seattle can not compete with a Lawyer in Vancouver. A pilot is Seattle can.

A dentist in Beijing can not compete with a dentist in Vancouver. A pilot is Beijing can.

What happens when foreign ownership of airlines is allowed. Who's labor laws apply?

Even if our labor laws do apply, can they be enforced outside Canada's boundaries.

As a group we are so far behind the curve that most of us don't even realize the scope of the problem before us. Instead we have individuals that clamor about yester years issues when in fact those ideas and fixes are no longer applicable.

[teacher]

This seems like a classic case of the talk of solutions coming decades after the problem began. I guess this goes around in a circle by saying this is where a strong pilot "college" or "association" comes into affect to lobby if needed and help influence the direction that is taken by our companies or elected officials. It's unfortunate that we as pilots and our respective groups/unions focus on ourselfs to the point of ignoring or out right undermining another group.

This isn't to slight anyone group but a hard fact. The term "greater good" comes to mind.

[Localizer]

Its funny how you sit back and slam everyones idea's and go on about how they won't work, but you offer up nothing. You bring up the CPA ... that could have been stopped a long time ago. But instead your group dismissed any possible merger or absorption of the regionals back when you had the chance to avert this CPA. Sure ... Georgian has a CPA aswell ... but not even close to the size of the Jazz CPA ... big difference between 14 Beech 1900's and a fleet of DH8's and RJ's doing almost 1000 departures a day across the country.

Im not trying to beat down the path of history and keep the bitterness alive ... I only want to show you what has happened ... and what could have happened. Would it have worked out had it been the other way ... maybe ... maybe not. But it would have been nice to find out.

In regards to American companies operating under a CPA agreement in Canada ... Im not sure of the law's when it comes to foreign corporations operating on Canadian soil, waters or skies ... but I would find it difficult to believe that it would just be allowed. I understand its a service being provided but there is no Canadian stake in the foreign company? And I would also have a hard time believeing that the government, after getting pressure from public opinion in tough times (or anytime) would allow tax paying Canadians to lose there jobs to foreign nationals working in their country. But who knows ... money talks right.

I wasn't calling mainline pilots evil .. just greedy .. everyone has families to support and morgages to pay, food to buy, gas, car payments you name it. The best example of what im talking about would be the US Airways/America West fight going on down south. Mainline carrier merging with a low cost carrier ... they have broken away from their union (ALPA), walked away from an arbitrators seniority award for the merger (US Airways pilots im talking about). Because they weren't happy with the deal and felt like they were getting screwed. Well ... as far as there union, the companies and arbitrator were concerned it was fair .. but they voted to walk away even after ACPA, Jazz MEC sent letters telling them not to, and to work it out. All because a senior US Airways pilot was going to lose his left seat to a senior America West pilot ... In reality ... maybe one or two years later it would have all worked out and guys would be back to were they belong .. (short term pain/long term gain) .. I haven't been on the playground in a long time ... but that sounds like bullying to me ... so another circle of fighting is going to continue on, for years to come, until one group gets a judge to say what they want. Great system. So am I wrong? Is that not greed fueled? ..

Does that US Airways/America West debacle sound familiar?

Cheers ..

[Brick Head]

Its funny how you sit back and slam every ones idea's and go on about how they won't work, but you offer up nothing.

I have been pointing out that the ideas do not go far enough. Most of them refer back to a day before CPA's in Canada. ACPA has not done any particular deal because they know it has to be an everyone solution and not just a Jazz/AC solution. IOW any deal would have to fix the problem. ACPA is not going to do a deal just for the sake of a deal.

I, on the other hand, have offered nothing because I can't see one that will work without enforcement. Enforcement of minimum wages and working conditions for every single commercial pilot period. IOW you work for less and your out of the college.

But a reality check is in order. As if, we are going to be able to dictate to upstarts that they have to pay X amount of dollars. As if, pilots won't volunteer to work for less. As if, the present groups of pilots will relinquish their right to determine what they are willing to work for, in favor of a structure that works for the common good, rather than just their own. As if a foreign pilot will give a rats ass.

So your right. I have nothing to offer as far a solution. I don't see one that will likely work.

You bring up the CPA ... that could have been stopped a long time ago. But instead your group dismissed any possible merger or absorption of the regionals back when you had the chance to avert this CPA.

This problem stems from how we are structured. Now this discussion is getting somewhere. ACPA represents Air Canada pilots interests only. Even under CALPA, the Air Canada MEC looked out for only, the Air Canada pilots. This is going to sound harsh but the point needs to be made. What difference does it make to Air Canada pilots who does the CPA or connector flying? Before you come unglued. This is the structural problem I am referring. ACPA is supposed to look after Air Canada pilots.....ONLY. We are structured to protect only our particular group.

The proposed College of pilots will not change this. We will still have individual pilot groups looking after their own interests.

To give you some insight. You may or not be aware that at the moment, within the ACPA CA, it states only Jazz will fly medium props and small jets for AC. Actually I think it makes reference to Air BC, CRA, Air Ontario ect. It's old and apparently missed by AC during restructuring. Under our present structure, what interest does ACPA have in using bargaining capital to preserve that clause in our contract?

Brutal right?

Sure ... Georgian has a CPA aswell ... but not even close to the size of the Jazz CPA ... big difference between 14 Beech 1900's and a fleet of DH8's and RJ's doing almost 1000 departures a day across the country.

Teir 3, for the moment, can't fly anything larger than 19 seats due to the ACPA CA.

Im not trying to beat down the path of history and keep the bitterness alive ... I only want to show you what has happened ... and what could have happened. Would it have worked out had it been the other way ... maybe ... maybe not. But it would have been nice to find out.

Yup. That is what happens when you are structured to look only after yourself.

In regards to American companies operating under a CPA agreement in Canada ... Im not sure of the law's when it comes to foreign corporations operating on Canadian soil, waters or skies ... but I would find it difficult to believe that it would just be allowed.

At the moment the only work US regional carriers can do for AC is transboarder. Just as Jazz could do transboarder flying for an American carrier. It could be a direct CPA or increased code share.

I understand its a service being provided but there is no Canadian stake in the foreign company?

Not needed unless you want to fly point to point in Canada. But even that is becoming a joke. ACE owns 75% of AC. ACE is almost entirely foreign owned. Don't kid yourself. AC is not Canadian controlled.

And I would also have a hard time believing that the government, after getting pressure from public opinion in tough times (or anytime) would allow tax paying Canadians to lose there jobs to foreign nationals working in their country. But who knows ... money talks right.

Your government is bring down barriers as we speak.

Go to Google and type open skies Canada European union. Harper stated last week we could expect a break through on the talks soon.

I wasn't calling mainline pilots evil .. just greedy ..

Greedy for looking out for their own interests and no one elses? That is how we are structured.

I know you are looking at this purely from a regional vs mainline stand point. With KLM and Lufthansa buying up the world it is quickly becoming a Mainline - Mainline issue. Wonder how ACPA will fair against the UAL or Lufthansa pilots when our interest eventually clash?