Think more like a plumber.
No mergers are required.
One national Professional pilot list.
Everyone's collective agreement references that list. Absolutely no reference to internal seniority lists.
Allow pilots to be mobile with their seniority.
You want a pilot? This is what they cost. Every company pays the same for pilots.
If a company won't pay. They get no pilots. If pilots cross they are off the national list.
A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
-
squawk 7600
- Rank 4
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:36 am
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
It should be Jazz pilots to the bottom of the AC list. The most senior Jazz guys won't have to worry about anyone taking their captain positions on the RJ or Dash, and the less senior ones can either wait for a Dash or RJ upgrade, or jump all of that and continue right seat duties on something larger at mainline. As far as the AC guys are concerned, I don't think you'd see anyone "stepping down" to the RJ or Dash. In my opinion, not much would change, other than you would have ACPA and ALPA actually working together. At least ACPA wouldn't be so afraid to lose their flying to Jazz. And don't you think this would put AC in a better position to compete with WestJet at the "regional" level? Don't you think the entire group would form a strong bond, making it the envy of the Canadian aviation industry?
-
Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
Brickhead Wrote:
I know the point you are making however, it has been my experience as a member of both CALPA and ACPA, that a Unions mandate is to the benefit of the Union, not necessarily its' members. This is demonstrated time and time again unfortunately.
A unions mandate is to their members only and not the common good of all professional pilots.
I know the point you are making however, it has been my experience as a member of both CALPA and ACPA, that a Unions mandate is to the benefit of the Union, not necessarily its' members. This is demonstrated time and time again unfortunately.
Standby for new atis message
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
Ok. I will not try and rant. but there is a few things I dont understand here:
1. Why do mainline guys look at what jazz costs instead of how much profit jazz makes mainline? Cost is sort of irrelevant unless you look at profit also.
2. AC mainline fails to make money in the best economic times in recent history and the best idea the pilots on this forum can come up with is because they pay jazz too much? Sorry.. thats not it.
3. You absolutely get what you pay for. Go sit on a flight on a rj 700 operated by a united connector and let me know what you think. As I've said before.. you cannot compare costs between american and canadian regionals unless you factor in differences in income tax, cost of living etc. unless mainline pilots want to make the same as united pilots. which trust me, they dont.
4.Its pilots like Tony who give Air Canada pilots a bad reputation as "sky gods". Its too bad 99.9% of them arent like that at all. I dont understand why he can't see if we all worked together we would be alot better off in the future. But then again I guess I'm not at the same "level" as him as far as being a professional pilot.
oh ya. Happy New Year
180
1. Why do mainline guys look at what jazz costs instead of how much profit jazz makes mainline? Cost is sort of irrelevant unless you look at profit also.
2. AC mainline fails to make money in the best economic times in recent history and the best idea the pilots on this forum can come up with is because they pay jazz too much? Sorry.. thats not it.
3. You absolutely get what you pay for. Go sit on a flight on a rj 700 operated by a united connector and let me know what you think. As I've said before.. you cannot compare costs between american and canadian regionals unless you factor in differences in income tax, cost of living etc. unless mainline pilots want to make the same as united pilots. which trust me, they dont.
4.Its pilots like Tony who give Air Canada pilots a bad reputation as "sky gods". Its too bad 99.9% of them arent like that at all. I dont understand why he can't see if we all worked together we would be alot better off in the future. But then again I guess I'm not at the same "level" as him as far as being a professional pilot.
oh ya. Happy New Year
180
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
3. You absolutely get what you pay for. Go sit on a flight on a rj 700 operated by a united connector and let me know what you think. As I've said before.. you cannot compare costs between american and canadian regionals unless you factor in differences in income tax, cost of living etc. unless mainline pilots want to make the same as united pilots. which trust me, they dont.
I'm glad you brought this point up. Average Captain wages at a US Regional are between 95 - 105 an hour for an RJ 200 captain. Highest wage is $125 an hour at Horizon for a RJ700 captain. Factor in exchange rate of 20% he's making $150 an hour. Factor in gas costing 50% less per litre, no heating costs in southern US. Lower income tax and state taxes, ability to write off interest on their mortgage, lower cost of purchasing big consumer items (i.e. Vehicles, TV's etc.). It's probably worth around $180k a year. Not bad in my books. Far better than what a senior 320 Captain makes at Air Canada.
I'm glad you brought this point up. Average Captain wages at a US Regional are between 95 - 105 an hour for an RJ 200 captain. Highest wage is $125 an hour at Horizon for a RJ700 captain. Factor in exchange rate of 20% he's making $150 an hour. Factor in gas costing 50% less per litre, no heating costs in southern US. Lower income tax and state taxes, ability to write off interest on their mortgage, lower cost of purchasing big consumer items (i.e. Vehicles, TV's etc.). It's probably worth around $180k a year. Not bad in my books. Far better than what a senior 320 Captain makes at Air Canada.
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
one8tee wrote:Ok. I will not try and rant. but there is a few things I dont understand here:
1. Why do mainline guys look at what jazz costs instead of how much profit jazz makes mainline? Cost is sort of irrelevant unless you look at profit also.
2. AC mainline fails to make money in the best economic times in recent history and the best idea the pilots on this forum can come up with is because they pay jazz too much? Sorry.. thats not it.
3. You absolutely get what you pay for. Go sit on a flight on a rj 700 operated by a united connector and let me know what you think. As I've said before.. you cannot compare costs between american and canadian regionals unless you factor in differences in income tax, cost of living etc. unless mainline pilots want to make the same as united pilots. which trust me, they dont.
4.Its pilots like Tony who give Air Canada pilots a bad reputation as "sky gods". Its too bad 99.9% of them arent like that at all. I dont understand why he can't see if we all worked together we would be alot better off in the future. But then again I guess I'm not at the same "level" as him as far as being a professional pilot.
oh ya. Happy New Year
180
Where to start with this mess? Maybe I leave it to someone else that has more energy today.
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
As 99.9% of the income comes directly from Air Canada, I would hazard a guess that if Air Canada enters CCAA, Jazz will be right behind. As far as the CPA, I think the last CCAA round proved that anything is possible and nothing is written in stone.[/quote]
Why would Jazz go into bankruptcy if AC does? When AC went CCAA last time and dragged Jazz down Georgian and CMA were both doing CPA work for Air Canada. Did they go bankrupt???? Nope don't think so. Was the vast majority of business at CMA and GGN codeshare work??? Yup. Would the CPA get renegotiated? Quite possibly, but there's no reason we have to go bankrupt. I believe the BOD would have some explaining to do to the Unit holders if Jazz were to go Bankrupt.....
Why would Jazz go into bankruptcy if AC does? When AC went CCAA last time and dragged Jazz down Georgian and CMA were both doing CPA work for Air Canada. Did they go bankrupt???? Nope don't think so. Was the vast majority of business at CMA and GGN codeshare work??? Yup. Would the CPA get renegotiated? Quite possibly, but there's no reason we have to go bankrupt. I believe the BOD would have some explaining to do to the Unit holders if Jazz were to go Bankrupt.....
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
CRAP!
Gotta cold anyway.
Look, You won't like what I have say. Read away at your own risk. But sticking our heads in the sand over what I am referring to as the Americanization of Regional service in Canada will get none of us anywhere. Ultimately we are all in this together.
IOW don't shoot the messenger. A solution is what is needed. I am not in anyway saying Jazz pilots are paid to much. What I am saying is that for a large portion of professional pilots in Canada their quality of job and pay is under near term threat. That translates into a long term threat for all.
1. Why do mainline guys look at what jazz costs instead of how much profit jazz makes mainline? Cost is sort of irrelevant unless you look at profit also.
AC paid Jazz the equivalent of 27.93c Canadian per ASM in 2008 according to CIBC world markets (Jan 11, 2009). AC's average Revenue per seat mile (RASM), according to the same document, in 2008 was 17.38cents.
That is the simple version. Just do the math. The CPA is being operated at a loss. Those simple numbers would indicate that AC is receiving $62 in revenue for every $100 paid to Jazz.
It is likely that some routes operated by Jazz generated above average RASM do to the rural nature of some destinations. It is also very unlikely the routes operated against WJ were able to do so. Even assuming the routes operated by Jazz were able to generate an above average RASM of say 20cents per ASM. ( That is a huge if) AC is still loosing nearly 8cents per ASM every time a Jazz flight moves.
Jazz operated 5.7 billion ASM's in 2008 for AC.
5.7B * 8cents = 456 million loss to AC on the operation.
A different angle.
The average North American Regional was paid 17.01c Canadian (excluding Jazz) in 2008 for their CPA. The most expensive regional in the US came in at 19.63c (still has props) Canadian per ASM. Air Canada payed Jazz the equivalent of 27.93cents per ASM in 2008.
Once again, assuming a 20 cent RASM, if AC were paying the equivalent of the most expensive CPA provider in the US AC would have eked out a small profit on the CPA. Very small.
A third angle.
The difference from the most expensive US regional and Jazz is 8.3cents Canadian. Jazz operated 5.7Billion ASM's in 2008. 5.7B * 8.3cents = 473 million. That is how much more AC paid Jazz in 2008 than they would have to the most expensive CPA provider south of the boarder had they done the work instead.
Jazz is a CPA provider. They at some point in time will have to compete for the AC CPA with other providers.
How? I can tell you how. They will match the rate or loose it to a cheaper competitor. Quality of service is very important. However a business is a business. You don't operate it at a loss. You either make it profitable or you stop doing it.
This situation is very very serious.
Gotta cold anyway.
Look, You won't like what I have say. Read away at your own risk. But sticking our heads in the sand over what I am referring to as the Americanization of Regional service in Canada will get none of us anywhere. Ultimately we are all in this together.
IOW don't shoot the messenger. A solution is what is needed. I am not in anyway saying Jazz pilots are paid to much. What I am saying is that for a large portion of professional pilots in Canada their quality of job and pay is under near term threat. That translates into a long term threat for all.
1. Why do mainline guys look at what jazz costs instead of how much profit jazz makes mainline? Cost is sort of irrelevant unless you look at profit also.
AC paid Jazz the equivalent of 27.93c Canadian per ASM in 2008 according to CIBC world markets (Jan 11, 2009). AC's average Revenue per seat mile (RASM), according to the same document, in 2008 was 17.38cents.
That is the simple version. Just do the math. The CPA is being operated at a loss. Those simple numbers would indicate that AC is receiving $62 in revenue for every $100 paid to Jazz.
It is likely that some routes operated by Jazz generated above average RASM do to the rural nature of some destinations. It is also very unlikely the routes operated against WJ were able to do so. Even assuming the routes operated by Jazz were able to generate an above average RASM of say 20cents per ASM. ( That is a huge if) AC is still loosing nearly 8cents per ASM every time a Jazz flight moves.
Jazz operated 5.7 billion ASM's in 2008 for AC.
5.7B * 8cents = 456 million loss to AC on the operation.
A different angle.
The average North American Regional was paid 17.01c Canadian (excluding Jazz) in 2008 for their CPA. The most expensive regional in the US came in at 19.63c (still has props) Canadian per ASM. Air Canada payed Jazz the equivalent of 27.93cents per ASM in 2008.
Once again, assuming a 20 cent RASM, if AC were paying the equivalent of the most expensive CPA provider in the US AC would have eked out a small profit on the CPA. Very small.
A third angle.
The difference from the most expensive US regional and Jazz is 8.3cents Canadian. Jazz operated 5.7Billion ASM's in 2008. 5.7B * 8.3cents = 473 million. That is how much more AC paid Jazz in 2008 than they would have to the most expensive CPA provider south of the boarder had they done the work instead.
Jazz is a CPA provider. They at some point in time will have to compete for the AC CPA with other providers.
How? I can tell you how. They will match the rate or loose it to a cheaper competitor. Quality of service is very important. However a business is a business. You don't operate it at a loss. You either make it profitable or you stop doing it.
This situation is very very serious.
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
CMA and GGN both had their rates cut during CCAA. Both had the margin to absorb it and still be profitable. Their costs are that low.swervin wrote:
Why would Jazz go into bankruptcy if AC does? When AC went CCAA last time and dragged Jazz down Georgian and CMA were both doing CPA work for Air Canada. Did they go bankrupt???? Nope don't think so. Was the vast majority of business at CMA and GGN codeshare work??? Yup. Would the CPA get renegotiated? Quite possibly, but there's no reason we have to go bankrupt.
If AC goes into CCAA again, the CPA with Jazz is cancelled and new rates and who does what CPA work is completely renegotiated.
Jazz's CASM (as reported by Jazz) was 25.43c Canadian in 2008. Nearly double other CPA providers in North America. How do you think a scenario whereby Jazz does not go into CCAA would play out?
Porter, Messa, Skywest, GGN, CMA, HawkAir, ect ect will all be going after your work.
I don't believe AC is going into bankruptcy. Neither does CIBC world markets according to their latest amended report on AC. They up'ed the target price on AC.
-
squawk 7600
- Rank 4
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:36 am
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
I think you are missing the overall picture: Jazz (as well as Georgian and CMA) are used to bring people to and from Hubs. You can't measure how much they lost on the direct cost per seat mile alone....you have to also factor in how much did AC make on that passenger buying a ticket from Sudbury to Toronto and then onto somewhere overseas...and so forth. Mainline carriers rely heavily on CPA's to fill up their larger aircraft. It is typically a necessary evil...although the cost is far outweighed by the overall generated revenue from these CPA's.
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
2. AC mainline fails to make money in the best economic times in recent history and the best idea the pilots on this forum can come up with is because they pay jazz too much? Sorry.. thats not it.
AC's consolidated CASM was 17.13 cents per ASM on a RASM of 17.38cents in 2008. That is profitable operationally. Yes barely.
Keep in mind that includes tickets sold below cost as fuel went through the roof. By the time AC provided the product it was at a loss on advanced ticket sales.
Keep in mind also, that CASM includes the 27.93 cents per ASM it costs AC to operate the 9% of the ASM's outsourced to Jazz. Normally CPA's reduce overall CASM. That is the whole point of a CPA. But not in this case.
AC's consolidated CASM was 17.13 cents per ASM on a RASM of 17.38cents in 2008. That is profitable operationally. Yes barely.
Keep in mind that includes tickets sold below cost as fuel went through the roof. By the time AC provided the product it was at a loss on advanced ticket sales.
Keep in mind also, that CASM includes the 27.93 cents per ASM it costs AC to operate the 9% of the ASM's outsourced to Jazz. Normally CPA's reduce overall CASM. That is the whole point of a CPA. But not in this case.
-
mattedfred
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
ok then brick head if i follow your logic AC's CASM would increase if JZA shutdown tomorrow. i guess AC could find some spare EMBs to do some of the former JZA flying. i think your logic is flawed.
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
Yes true.squawk 7600 wrote:...although the cost is far outweighed by the overall generated revenue from these CPA's.
But do you actually believe that AC will not seek to do the work as cheap as possible when they have the chance? Why would a company voluntarily pay way above the going rate for a service? Remember the present agreement was imposed by ACE.
-
mattedfred
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
that's why they are currently negotiating the new CPA rates and it has gone to arbitration. AC will squeeze Jazz and Jazz will squeeze the Jazz pilots.
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
No. AC would get another CPA provider to do the work which would reduce AC's CASM.mattedfred wrote:ok then brick head if i follow your logic AC's CASM would increase if JZA shutdown tomorrow. i guess AC could find some spare EMBs to do some of the former JZA flying. i think your logic is flawed.
Look I am not trying to piss on your corn flakes even though it appears that way.
I am being blunt. Does no one else see what is coming right over the horizon?
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
3. You absolutely get what you pay for. Go sit on a flight on a rj 700 operated by a united connector and let me know what you think
Absolutely agree. Jazz is by far the most superior CPA provider in North America. By far IMO.
Ask yourself. How much premium AC will be willing to pay for the quality? Unfortunately we are not valued. We are seen as liabilities. When a premium product on the shelve sells for a premium price there is no problem. When a premium product ends up on the shelf in Walmart.....we have a problem.
Absolutely agree. Jazz is by far the most superior CPA provider in North America. By far IMO.
Ask yourself. How much premium AC will be willing to pay for the quality? Unfortunately we are not valued. We are seen as liabilities. When a premium product on the shelve sells for a premium price there is no problem. When a premium product ends up on the shelf in Walmart.....we have a problem.
-
mattedfred
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
your analogy is inaccurate as your 'walmart' is unable to operate point to point within canada. it's supply and demand. jazz is one of the only games in town right now so we could ask a for premium rate. that may change at some point but it hasn't yet. comparing jazz to any US regional is illogical but that is how the CPA is set up. we don't need to use the same twisted logic to argue that we aren't worth what we currently get paid and more. ACPA should be careful what they wish for as other non-unionized or non-ALPA shops may not play as nice as ALPA does when it comes to scope.
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
You guys make it sound like AC got duped into this CPA. Hardly.
The Master Business Alliance at AC created JAZZ as well as the CPA.
There is so much more to the agreement that was/is a benefit to AC. Such as the obligation to use AC's services at AC bases. The financing of this CPA is a labrynth of money channels feeding the Curberus.
I have no doubt that a new CPA will be created under the disguise of an arbitrated award so that no one in particular will have to take any blame.
GTFA
The Master Business Alliance at AC created JAZZ as well as the CPA.
There is so much more to the agreement that was/is a benefit to AC. Such as the obligation to use AC's services at AC bases. The financing of this CPA is a labrynth of money channels feeding the Curberus.
I have no doubt that a new CPA will be created under the disguise of an arbitrated award so that no one in particular will have to take any blame.
GTFA
-
mattedfred
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
mattedfred,mattedfred wrote:your analogy is inaccurate as your 'walmart' is unable to operate point to point within canada. it's supply and demand. jazz is one of the only games in town right now so we could ask a for premium rate. that may change at some point but it hasn't yet. comparing jazz to any US regional is illogical but that is how the CPA is set up. we don't need to use the same twisted logic to argue that we aren't worth what we currently get paid and more. ACPA should be careful what they wish for as other non-unionized or non-ALPA shops may not play as nice as ALPA does when it comes to scope.
I'm not the enemy. Nor is ACPA. I don't know any ACPA pilots that want to see Jazz pilots take a hit. Believe me when I say. Jazz is not a topic of discussion at AC. You are not disliked, You are not hated. The vast majority want what is best for all. I know AC pilots who are concerned about AC's ability to be profitable under the present CPA arrangement, but that is it.
ACPA understands what happens if wage disparity between regional and mainline grow to large. We have had a decade to watch the effects south of the boarder. A bunch of the stuff I posted earlier on one union is regurgitation from ACPA officials.
We have a real problem if we can't even rationally discuss the future challenges that await us all. The Jazz CPA is a major problem for Corporate AC. Great for ACE and Cerberous. Not so much for AC. The apron strings from the holding company are coming off. Whether now or later they will deal with it.
We are marching down the same route the US airlines started down over a decade ago. All they did was fight with each other. Look what it got them.
I didn't. ACPA didn't. ALPA Jazz didn't. Nor of us had any part in the decision to make Jazz a CPA provider. We will however have to deal with its impact on wages and working conditions in Canada.
We can not deal with the problem until everyone accepts there is a problem to start with.
Put another way. I want what is best for you because it is what is best for me.
All the best.
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
Ok guys.. good discussion. Before I say anything else I want to say that overall, more important than anything else we need to work together for the long term benifet of all.
In saying that however, I still have a few questions as to Brick Head's logic:
Your math seems to be 100% accurate. Except: The CASM of Jazz compared to american regionals is un- comparable. Its like comparing oranges to apples. yes they're both fruit. yes you can eat them both. they both however, come from different trees.
Jazz as well as the american regionals are basically airline staffing and training agencies. the primary cost therefore being wages.
We know our american friends make less money than our canadian counterparts based in part because
1) Lower license requirments for FO's- translates to lower training costs, lower wages based on experience
2)Lower taxes= more usable income
3)Lower cost of living.
Factor in the above, then the superior level of service, then the fact that passengers cant tell the difference between a mainline and a jazz flight. Then you'll have comparable numbers. Jazz is not costing AC money. AC is costing AC money.
In saying that however, I still have a few questions as to Brick Head's logic:
Your math seems to be 100% accurate. Except: The CASM of Jazz compared to american regionals is un- comparable. Its like comparing oranges to apples. yes they're both fruit. yes you can eat them both. they both however, come from different trees.
Jazz as well as the american regionals are basically airline staffing and training agencies. the primary cost therefore being wages.
We know our american friends make less money than our canadian counterparts based in part because
1) Lower license requirments for FO's- translates to lower training costs, lower wages based on experience
2)Lower taxes= more usable income
3)Lower cost of living.
Factor in the above, then the superior level of service, then the fact that passengers cant tell the difference between a mainline and a jazz flight. Then you'll have comparable numbers. Jazz is not costing AC money. AC is costing AC money.
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
GTFA,GTFA wrote:You guys make it sound like AC got duped into this CPA. Hardly.
The Master Business Alliance at AC created JAZZ as well as the CPA.
There is so much more to the agreement that was/is a benefit to AC. Such as the obligation to use AC's services at AC bases.
I have no doubt that a new CPA will be created under the disguise of an arbitrated award so that no one in particular will have to take any blame.
GTFA
We may not always see eye to eye. You are however well informed. How true this statement.
The financing of this CPA is a labrynth of money channels feeding Curberus.
Problem for AC is that it is coming out of their coffers. It is also the reason, as I have stated previous, I do not put too much stock on Jazz's published CASM. It is a consolidated number with who knows what going on in it.
I have always tried to be careful not to say Jazz is too expensive. Rather that what AC pays for the CPA is too much. I think the subtle difference is lost in the written word.
Do you have concern over the fact that Jazz is now a CPA provider as it pertains to professional pilot wages and working conditions in Canada?
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
Absolutely agree.one8tee wrote:Ok guys.. good discussion. Before I say anything else I want to say that overall, more important than anything else we need to work together for the long term benifet of all.
In saying that however, I still have a few questions as to Brick Head's logic:
Your math seems to be 100% accurate. Except: The CASM of Jazz compared to american regionals is un- comparable. Its like comparing oranges to apples. yes they're both fruit. yes you can eat them both. they both however, come from different trees.
Jazz as well as the american regionals are basically airline staffing and training agencies. the primary cost therefore being wages.
We know our american friends make less money than our canadian counterparts based in part because
1) Lower license requirments for FO's- translates to lower training costs, lower wages based on experience
2)Lower taxes= more usable income
3)Lower cost of living.
Factor in the above, then the superior level of service, then the fact that passengers cant tell the difference between a mainline and a jazz flight. Then you'll have comparable numbers. Jazz is not costing AC money. AC is costing AC money.
Jazz is not comparable (exactly) to a US regional. I could come up with a slew of other factors as well. Landing fees, de icing ect.
You are missing the point. And I think you just help prove mine. When CPA's come up for renewal they go out to tender. The three things you just listed gives Messa, for example, a cost competitive advantage over Jazz while bidding on the the Transboarder work.
This is not that much different than the manufacturing of consumer goods off shore. If it gives a company a cost advantage they do it. Once one does it they all have to do it to compete.
We all know how well that quality has been with lead paint and all.
By the way. Off topic I know. But part of the thrust behind the recent failed AC uniform change, directly from the manager of line operations, was to distinguish AC pilots from the connectors.
Re: A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.
True. What I am saying is Jazz won't do business if forced to work for the same prices as our american counterparts. They can have the flying if it comes down to that because it would be impossible for us to make money at it.
As per the uniform change- that makes no sense at all. AC, as per the cpa dictates what we wear. As well they have been trying for the last year to eliminate jazz from all flight numbers etc to give brand recognition to AC (which makes sense, having jazz there is just confusing to the customers). Point is they wouldnt deliberatly go about trying to set us apart.
As per the uniform change- that makes no sense at all. AC, as per the cpa dictates what we wear. As well they have been trying for the last year to eliminate jazz from all flight numbers etc to give brand recognition to AC (which makes sense, having jazz there is just confusing to the customers). Point is they wouldnt deliberatly go about trying to set us apart.
