Obama ends program that let pilots carry guns

[Cat Driver]

I think we are really missing something here gang:

I dont think guns would have made a difference because I dont buy the official version of events, none of it.

Fogghorn please tell us what you don't buy about the 911 events and what you think happened.

[fogghorn]

Well, there have been books and movies written about the whole thing than can articulate in far better detail than I can. But some for instances, do you recall that when Payne Stewarts Lear went off course there were a couple of F16's off his wing within 20 minutes? Then recall that we had nordo 757's flying aimlessly around the busiest airspace in North America for an hour, and that was after the 1st tower was struck!! the incongruity, the absolute symmetry with which wtc 7 fell after being struck by nothing other than some minor debris, the fact that Bush tried to head the 911 commission up with the old crock Kissinger who was rejected because he would not disclose his business dealings. The lack of data from even one FDR or one CVR from the 4 aircraft and the fact that the official trajectory of the aircraft that hit the pentagon does not jive with the physical data, or eyewitness reports. I mean really, the anomalies could take up an encyclopedia, so I do not happen to believe the official story of events and I wont accept that guns in the cockpit would have made a difference. This is my opinion, I wont get dragged into more debate, but I feel 911 was simply a pretext for the trashing of the U.S constitution and to some degree ours, and a pretext to wage endless wars for oil. By the way, we just lost 4 more in Afghanistan - its a travesty and Canadians should be outraged.

[AuxBatOn]

Why did the Taliban claimed they orchaestrated the attacks?

If there were that many people involved in the "plots" (ATC, pilots, military personnel, talibans, government officials, etc), why didn't anybody speak up in the last 8 years?

[Cat Driver]

so I do not happen to believe the official story of events and I wont accept that guns in the cockpit would have made a difference. This is my opinion, I wont get dragged into more debate

O.K. I can understand your distrust of the American government if for no other reason than they are as you say trashing the rights of the American public under the pretext of keeping them safe from terrorists.

But do you believe that the eight pilots who died in the 911 events were part of the plot?

If they were not part of the plot would it not follow that if they were armed they may have shot the terrorists?

[Skyhunter]

Cat, my point exactly....

[fogghorn]

so I do not happen to believe the official story of events and I wont accept that guns in the cockpit would have made a difference. This is my opinion, I wont get dragged into more debate

O.K. I can understand your distrust of the American government if for no other reason than they are as you say trashing the rights of the American public under the pretext of keeping them safe from terrorists.

But do you believe that the eight pilots who died in the 911 events were part of the plot?

If they were not part of the plot would it not follow that if they were armed they may have shot the terrorists?

Maybe the four aircraft were drones? I mean really, how in the hell do these jokers take over 4 different aircraft with a cockpit smeared in blood from the use of there massive box cutters and jump in and navigate precisely as these crackers did???? Its patently absurd. Like I said, the anomalies could fill 50 encyclo's, I don't know, but i feel that the commission was a blatant slap in the face to everyone who had relatives die on that day, it was a farce.

[AuxBatOn]

Maybe the four aircraft were drones? I mean really, how in the hell do these jokers take over 4 different aircraft with a cockpit smeared in blood from the use of there massive box cutters and jump in and navigate precisely as these crackers did???? Its patently absurd. Like I said, the anomalies could fill 50 encyclo's, I don't know, but i feel that the commission was a blatant slap in the face to everyone who had relatives die on that day, it was a farce.

Drones with passengers on board? You need to take a step back, think at your argument and then come back with a logical conclusion.

[onceacop]

I gotta agree with Cat. This 300' rule on floats thread and Pilot gun carry issue all point to the micro managing of people. Too many of you just roll over and accept the fact that you haven't got what it takes to make good independent decisions without big brother looking over ones shoulder. So yea I live in the US and carry a gun which my carry permit or my peace officers license grants me the right. I dont' carry out of fear but out of the mature decision that should something happen I am on at least a level playing field with those that have no respect for laws and human life. Does that make me crazy to want something like that? When I fly to AK commercially and check my handgun in with my check baggage, I would only hope the pilot or an Air Marshall is armed on that flight. It comes down to faith. I have the faith that those individuals are trained and would make the right decisions. On a seperate matter showing in my opionion a correlation, I am a member of Civil Air Patrol. This organization has had several bad years back to back in the area of safety. Fatal accidents and incidents are way up. The red tape and pure bullshit coming down the pike has totally backfired on them. Pilots are flying less, more rules, more regulations, micro management, less proficiency in the planes. When one cannot make decisions for themselves then pretty soon you quit being able to wipe your own ass. Planes crash and the upper level managment are so blinded by their ignorence and arrogance that they cry foul and blame everyone but themselves. The way I see some of these flight schools operating makes me wonder how and when a pilot will ever really learn. Guess I am old school. I think the whole issue and mess with industry and soceity as a whole nowadays is a lack of confidence in abilities because there are those that cannot grant that freedom due to a risk assesment that is way far left of center. flame away

[Skyhunter]

so I do not happen to believe the official story of events and I wont accept that guns in the cockpit would have made a difference. This is my opinion, I wont get dragged into more debate

O.K. I can understand your distrust of the American government if for no other reason than they are as you say trashing the rights of the American public under the pretext of keeping them safe from terrorists.

But do you believe that the eight pilots who died in the 911 events were part of the plot?

If they were not part of the plot would it not follow that if they were armed they may have shot the terrorists?

Maybe the four aircraft were drones? I mean really, how in the hell do these jokers take over 4 different aircraft with a cockpit smeared in blood from the use of there massive box cutters and jump in and navigate precisely as these crackers did???? Its patently absurd. Like I said, the anomalies could fill 50 encyclo's, I don't know, but i feel that the commission was a blatant slap in the face to everyone who had relatives die on that day, it was a farce.

Fogghorn I think you really need a reality check! I will bow out from further arguments with you. If feel your beliefs are so far removed from the reality as to not even have any common ground to continue a reasonable discussion.

[Cat Driver]

Hows things going onceacop?

You are correct society is being micromanaged to the point people are becoming robots only moving when controlled by their masters.

I have been taking quite a bit of flack from some of the posters here who twist every word I type to make it look like I am some sort of ego driven regulation breaking wingnut.

They claim I am leading the young ones astray by counseling them to work around the regulations, when the truth is I am counseling them to examine the regulations and when they see one that has been poorly thought out they should work to get the regulator to change it to better reflect the reality of the situation the regulation was put in place for.

Here is a question few answer with regards to my advice and opinions here, if I am wrong and my PDM skills and flying skills are so suspect how did I manage to fly so many different airplanes and helicopters all over the planet for the last 55 years without bending one?

If the reason is nothing more than luck and the law of averages then everyone else should be able to have the same safety record after 55 years in the business.

Right?

[onceacop]

Things are good Cat. Ready for spring

[Carrier]

Quote: "Flying a plane is dangerous enough. We don't need another thing that can kill us in the cockpit."

istp, have you told the terrorists and have they agreed to abide by your thoughts? Please let us know how you achieved this.

Does the "head in the sand" response to a problem really work? Faced with a problem, smart people usually take a look around to see if it has already been solved. Why reinvent the wheel? That being the case, the rest of the world should implement ALL of the procedures used by the Israeli government and El Al.

[Rockie]

Some really excellent paranoid conspiracy theories here on a wide range of subjects. But back to the subject at hand...arming airline pilots is just about the dumbest, most useless and irrelevant thing the yanks have ever done.

While it's true that since then no American airplane with an armed pilot has been hijacked, no American airplane with an unarmed pilot has been hijacked either. There is a patch over an inadvertent bullet hole on a 320 though.

[Skyhunter]

Sorry rockie, have to completely disagree with you, but then again I am red neck gun lobby guy. I think all pilots should be packin'. Canadians included!

[Rockie]

I think all pilots should be packin'. Canadians included!

What for?

[Skyhunter]

Its one last line of defense should everything go to hell in a hand basket. Probably will never need them, in fact hope they would never be needed. I believe in fact carry will make even less likely that you will need it because knowing that you have it will be a deterrent. Like anything else in life though I would rather carry one for years and never need it, than one day need it and not have it.

I believe there is a potential of a real threat. Something may not happen for 10 years, 20 years or never but it could and that is enough reason to be prepared. Having a firearm is one more stop to prevent a future tragedy.

There are cops who go there whole career never drawing a firearm, does that mean all cops shouldn't carry. Yes the probability of need for a pilot is less, but still possible.

The second reason, as mentioned earlier which applies more to smaller bush planes and norther operators is a survival tool.

Third and last reason, to be honest (and this will ire some people but so be it), I like guns and want to pack.

People make to big a deal out of guns. They are just a tool.

[Rockie]

I'm surprised at you skyhunter. Guns are a weapon, not a tool. You above all people should recognize the difference.

Bush pilots don't count and I agree they should have protection if they feel they need it. Airlines pilots? No way. Airline pilots are behind a locked bullet resistant door that isn't opened except under controlled conditions. If a terrorist or really dissatisfied customer were to rush the cockpit while the door was open, Wyatt Earp in the front seat wouldn't have the time to get out his peni....er, gun, in time to do anything anyway. All he's doing is handing Abdul his weapon so he doesn't have to carry it himself.

It makes much more sense to give every single passenger a gun instead, because:

1. There are lots of them and they will no doubt outnumber the bad guys.
2. They are actually sitting in the back and can do something about it much sooner than the pilot.
3. They aren't doing anything semi-important already like, I don't know, flying the airplane or something.

This isn't Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan or even Maple Flag over the Cold Lake AWR. There are no grizzly bears where we land either. And I'm afraid your hard-on for guns carries little weight around the rest of society.

Thankfully Canada has more sense in this issue at least than the Americans.

[Skyhunter]

Rockie, I stand by my comment that guns are tools! Is a knife a tool, sure is. Can I use it as a weapon sure can. Should I outlaw knifes like we have guns in Canada? Can I kill myself with a car, or use as a weapon sure can, but it is still a tool. An airplane is a tool. Can I ram it into something and have become a weapon, sure can.

I disagree Rockie, I believe we should be more like the US as far as gun laws go! Instead of outlawing a tool make people more responsible for misuse of the tool.

Responsibility for ones actions rather than limiting a whole society use of an item.

Guns do not kill people..... they really don't, the person pulling a trigger does. Killing people is illegal, should be enough there if enforced properly.

By the way, I do realize I am of an minority opinion on that, and Rockie, even though I totally disagree with your opinion, I still respect it. Although I don't agree with our gun laws, I still obey them.

[flycyhm]

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[Widow]

Oh how I love the idea of every Jack and Jill from up and down the hill having their own gun. You trust the general public to be more responsible than a cop? I know we have to trust ourselves, but I sure as hell trust some random unknown from up the street a lot less than any cop. And I'm not a cop-lover, by any stretch.

Interesting:

The FAA could have prevented 9/11 if they had installed rugged cockpit doors that were requested over 40 years ago. Please visit my website: http://www.brianpowerwaters.com. I have written 5 airline safety books. I believe Danger in the Air depicts 9/11 nicely. 3,000 deaths is directly attributed to the FAA. In this case, it took 3,000 deaths for the tombstone agency to do something.

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

[flycyhm]

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[Rockie]

Less and less each day, are we a minority. People are waking up, and getting sick and tired of waiting for the government to save us all. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

Mike

Where do you think you are? Darfur?

What we need saving from is swaggering gun freaks and vigilante wannabe's.

[Widow]

My father remembers going to school with his rifle slung over his shoulder. It was common, he would go shooting at lunch, and after school. Canadians forget, Shooting was a huge part of our culture, and heritage.

Sure, because back in "the old days", people regularly hunted to feed their families. I have no personal objection to hunters having hunting rifles which they have been trained to use safely. But for the most part, people don't hunt to feed their families anymore, and those who do, don't go hunting with handguns or semi-automatics.

[canwhitewolf]

dltd

[flycyhm]

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