Hey there public...welcome to our dirty little secret

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Awww, come back. I won't throw sand in your face anymore. I promise. Though I don't feel I was being belittled personally, you can try all you want. Really. With the company I keep, I'm quite used to it. You can tell me all the issues I have as well...Cool Hand Luke's already gotten the ball rolling for ya...Get ready....GO!!!!!!!!!!

[tonysoprano]

Wonderful. Back with ya buddy. You know a few days at work, over some fine beer, made me think of my days where you're at now. It wasn't easy, you know. I understand what you're going through. Look at it this way, if this is as far as you'll ever get in this business you can always rely on your "humor" to get you through, I guess. But getting back to the issue of this derayled thread, I'll end by repeating the message that got lost in translation or was ignored, which is that I don't think YTZ has any challenges to it and neither does the big Q turboprop. In fact, if you have what it takes, most airplanes don't require much effort. Some airports do qualify as challenging but after a few go's at it, no problem, right? Buffalo is not a challenging airport, the airplane in question was fit to fly. The qualifications and abilities of the pilots is being put in question (and it sounds like it should). That's as far as I think I should go. Ciao handsome.

[Cat Driver]

But getting back to the issue of this derayled thread, I'll end by repeating the message that got lost in translation or was ignored, which is that I don't think YTZ has any challenges to it and neither does the big Q turboprop. In fact, if you have what it takes, most airplanes don't require much effort.

I shouldn't read these forums because it makes me afraid to fly on a scheduled airline.

Yeh, if airline pilots are now at the point that they consider flying a Dash 8 into the Toronto Island Airport to be a difficult job I'm going to drive or find some other means of transportation....I wonder if the people who drive trains have these phobias about train routes?

WTF .......is going on in aviation?

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

TONY!!! Halef**kinglujah!!! When you said this...

In fact, if you have what it takes, most airplanes don't require much effort. Some airports do qualify as challenging but after a few go's at it, no problem, right?

...I coulda grabbed you by the ears and kissed you. This was 117 000%, EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. When I said the approach you were talking about happened 200-300 times a day, this is what I was getting at. Contrary to some people's opinions of themselves, nobody here is some kind of gifted prodigy, or superhero. (Except for Mr. Cat, who obviously flew mail planes in the early-mid 1900's. That s**t was f**ked...) We're just dudes that were shown how to take a tube, fill it with people, start it and make it go somewhere. Had we not learned, we'd still be the same dudes, just dentists, or ditch diggers, or porn stars. I will agree in advance however, with those who say there are some who have no business doing this job. But that could be said about any career, and is a whole 'nother thread. Maybe the guy who sholdn't be a pilot would be a better dentist than I would. Doesn't make one any better than the other.

My point was that the guy who flies the "expressway visual" in a "real" airplane, is prolly no better than the guy who flies a 3.0 degree slope onto 10000' at YYZ, who is prolly no better than the guy who flies a "4.8 degree slope, to a 4000' east west runway in the winter", who is prolly no better than the guy who flies a raw data NDB approach with a fixed card ADF into buttf**k nowhere, (if anyone actually does that anymore), which by the way, if I had to do on a ride at this point, I'd prolly fail. I can't speak for you however.

We do what we do 'cause someone waaayyy before us has "been there and done that", and in turn has shown us how to "be here and do this". Yes, the first few times are challenging as you said, but after that, most of the time it's no biggee...My point all along was that people need to get over themselves...

Now...if we could only get it into your head that people who haven't got the same goals or aspirations to be where you are, are either wrong, in denial, or flat out lying, we'd see eye to eye...Oh well...On a side note, my KoolAid tastes funny. Does anyone else's????

Stay Thirsty My Friend

[tonysoprano]

I think Complex summarized it pretty good. You seem to have issues. I never bolsted myself to the likes of "maverick" and I certainly didn't belittle the Q drivers of YTZ. A comment was made about the intricacies of flying a Dash 8 out of YTZ and that this required special abilities and perhaps better remuneration. Having a few years of YTZ experience myself and being able to compare it with other places, I felt compelled to make that comparison. I pointed out that if that is the case, then flying a faster airplane in a busy environment like LGA or LHR or ORD is just as challenging so the comparison might bring to light the real world. Whether you accept or not, the reality is that it takes more skill and attention to fly faster airplanes in busy environments. If it makes you feel better, I can also tell you from experience that it takes just as much more skill to fly a twin otter off-strip in the arctic. It doesn't take "maverick" skills, just more skills. It's not an ego thing, it's reality. You decided to "fly" in here as a superhero and show all your fans how the humble little guy could shoot the "big" guy down. Once again I'm going to suggest you're the one with the issues and perhaps you should deal with it. If not, some of the guys you'll fly with on the "bigger" planes will remind you. So throw away the Superman cape, sit your ass down, have cold one and relax!! Your friends will tell you they don't need a hero.

[Cat Driver]

(Except for Mr. Cat, who obviously flew mail planes in the early-mid 1900's. That s**t was f**ked...)

Maybe, just maybe I have been flying long enough to recognize B.S. when I read it?

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Ahh…Yes, Mr. Cute an’ Fuzzy Punching Kitty, there is little doubt in my mind that you are a PhD in B.S.

Tony I couldn’t agree more. Different airplanes and environments require different skills. I don't dispute that. How could I? Nor do I dispute the challenges of anybody’s job. ‘Never have…If you look waaayyy back you’ll see that my original post was just me laughing…At you…Which I’m still doing. That’s it. You’re right; my friends didn’t need a hero. If you look, you’ll also notice that I didn’t once try to justify my friends post about how hard it is to fly into YTZ, (sorry Dude, whoever you are.) Nor did I make any comparisons about whose job was harder or required more skill. I don’t care...If my friends were belittled, that’s between you and them. I personally wasn’t belittled by any of it, though as I said, you are welcome to keep trying.

I didn’t get all bent outta shape and angry and tell you to STF UP. If I recall, I believe that was you. As I see it you may need to relax a little…You are though, entitled to your opinion Sir, as is Mr. Cat. My only point in all the drivel and smartassedness was, get over yourself. That’s it. I'm sorry, I don't know how "try flying a real airplane" coulda been an "ego thing" I guess. If that's not what it was then I apologize

Since apparently I’m the one with the issues, can you guys recommend anybody???

[complexintentions]

Nah. It's kind of entertaining to watch you make a jackass of yourself. Don't ever change, Dash Hero.

[roger.roger]

complexion, are you thinking that tony didn't embarres himself with the bigger penis statment?................disregard he's got more important things too worry about, like jazz taking his job. what would jazz pay a 67 fo?

[tonysoprano]

Actually roger I'm more worried about the fact that my crew meal has too much salt in it than Jazz taking over anything. I don't have to worry about the size of my penis. It's served me quite well over the years but perhaps for you to be thinking about it might point to deeper issues on your part. WTF are you doing thinking about the size of a guy's dick anyway? Yes, I fly a big airplane but if it makes you feel better, it's not the biggest. Yes, it's bigger than that pencil you fly. Get over it you dooffus. What would Jazz pay for 67 fo? Probably not enough. Hey, learn how to spell will ya.

[.......]

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=54373


...considering this thread, I certainly don't think so...

[tonysoprano]

...big mistake if you're using this forum as a measure of pilot professionalism. if you want reality you have to come to work with us and see what it's really like. having said that, there is some truth to your comment.

[corytrevor]

Tony you're going to develop high blood pressure if you are always pissed off at everyone.

Hey, learn how to spell will ya

But getting back to the issue of this derayled thread

derayled??

[Jaques Strappe]

Airline officials acknowledged at the hearing that Ms. Shaw, 24, was paid at a rate of about $23 (U.S.) an hour and had a salary of $16,254, although she could have earned more if she worked extra hours. She previously had a second job working in a coffee shop.







R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Tragic accident and we are learning more and more about unsafe working conditions in the airline industry. As for salaries, too bad these folks had not heard about assembly line work at Canada's automobile plants. Obviously that kind of work is much higher skilled and difficult to warrant higher wages than an airline pilot or co-pilot.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:36 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Chris Turner from Saskatoon, Canada writes: The rate of pay for ground crew and flight crew, especially on smaller airlines is an unfortunate fact that may be one of the final weak links in the air transport chain. It is hard to convince the best and brightest to work, and care when being paid so little...
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:48 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
Can't believe she earns such small salary, a truck driver earns much more than that. A pilot needs extensive training and qualification, they deserve the decent pay with so many people's lives are at the stake.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:49 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Arron D from Canada writes: R.M. I don't think she would have qualified... she was motivated, interested and could spell 'career' right at least 3 out of 5 times. UAW would never have accepted her. " not really union material.. if you know what I mean."
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:52 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Mark Shore from Ottawa, Canada writes: $16K/year for a safety-critical position needing several years of training, often self-financed? Words fail.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:52 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Frank The Tank from Argentina writes: Scary how pilots are paid peanuts at $23 and uneducated CAW workers make $80 an hour.

Given the discrepancy in skill sets it should be CAW workers making $23/hr
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:53 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Terrible Jerry from Canada writes: How comforting to be on a plane co-piloted by a part time barista. I hope this airline is sued out of existence.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:53 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Duke Smith from Canada writes: i honestly can't believe what i just read. i'm in shock. i made more money stocking shelves at a grocery store part time when i was a student.

is this what we've become? so obsessed with cheap flights and, frankly, cheap everything, that pilots have to take part time jobs and live with their parents? our global economy is one giant race to the bottom for everyone but the owners of capital. make as much profit as possible and squeeze as much out of your workers as possible. and these are the results. if you want to see some of the other results, drop by the maquilladora zone in Mexico or visit a sweatshop in india where your GAP chinos are made. this is disgraceful.
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:04 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Alberta Marlowe from Halifax, Canada writes: A person not much qualified for anything can make over $120,000 a year as the "spokesman" for the Nova Scotia premier; a "director of education", again, not much qualified for anything, at an Ontario school board makes well over $100,000 and a highly skilled pilot who holds the lives of hundreds of people in his or her hands makes $55,000? I bet most of the people killed in that crash made more than the pilots did.
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:05 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Aloha X from Toronto, Canada writes: For comparison, some 588 TTC staff earned $100,000 or more in 2008. That number includes 62 drivers and 21 station collectors, the people who staff subway fare booths.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/611565
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:11 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
This is so sad a story.

High skill, high technology knowledge required, very stressful jobs pay so little, low skill jobs pay that high since you're a member of some union....

Welcome to the wonderful world of communism, folks, it's a reality.
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:11 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Eric Williams from Canada writes: Can we ascertain from this article that if you want to fly commercial airliners, expect to live frugally like an aspiring actor might during the early years of your career?
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:13 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Wow

A really solid post and a good start to a promising thread, followed by three pages of cock size comparisons. Great job! Anyone reading this thread would say that pilots are obviously over paid at $16K per year.

[.......]

Wow

A really solid post and a good start to a promising thread, followed by three pages of cock size comparisons. Great job! Anyone reading this thread would say that pilots are obviously over paid at $16K per year.

Aren't you proud, Jacques, of being part of this great big disfunctionnal family???? Not!!!

[Cat Driver]

followed by three pages of cock size comparisons.

Maybe we could get some thoughts on the importance of cock size from our female colleagues?

[U/S]

There are a few douchebags that I'm glad I don't have to fly with around here.

That is too funny. I read that like 10 minutes ago and I'm still laughing, too true!

[Canoehead]

This thread has evolved into an episode of that retarded reality show "Big Brother".

Reminds me of being in grade 8.

However, I keep 'tuning in'.



He is a loathsome, offensive brute. Yet I can't look away.

[ivanhoe]

Our view on air safety: Too often, FAA puts industry concerns above passengers'
Today's 'summit' on regional carriers follows years of neglect
Nearly 15 years ago, after a spate of regional air crashes involving pilots with shaky records, federal regulators promised "on one level of safety" for all airlines, both large and small.


The hollowness of that promise hit home in recent days, as hearings unfolded into the Feb. 12 crash of a Colgan Air turboprop outside Buffalo that killed 50 people. The captain and co-pilot were underpaid, inexperienced, undisciplined and perhaps exhausted — some of the failings that were supposed to have been banished by federal actions in the 1990s.

In response, the FAA has called a "summit meeting" today of airlines, pilot unions and other industry groups to wrestle with improving safety at regional carriers. While the goal is laudable, and flying in America remains extraordinarily safe, the meeting raises the question of where regulators have been while these problems have been festering for so many years:

Hiring. Almost every serious regional accident in the past decade involved a pilot who repeatedly failed skills tests known as "check rides." The Colgan Air captain, in fact, had five failed check rides. In a 2004 crash, another captain had an astounding seven failures. Often, airlines say they didn't know about these check rides. That's in part because a 1996 law designed to correct that problem has dangerous gaps — ones the FAA has been warned about for years. Its response? To urge carriers to seek more records voluntarily. This is inexcusable. The FAA holds all the records needed. If carriers aren't curious enough to ask for them, the FAA should require that they do so.

Training. At the very least, new programs are needed to provide remedial training to pilots who show deficiencies. Federal safety watchdogs urged the FAA to require that training, but again the FAA opted for a voluntary approach. The agency didn't even bother to check to see whether airlines complied. In April, just weeks before the hearings on Colgan, the FAA belatedly got curious, promising to follow up with carriers.

Fatigue. Dangerously long workdays and tired pilots have been cited for years as the cause of several crashes. But when the FAA proposed changing antiquated work rules in 1995, the industry and pilots hit the agency with a barrage of criticism. And the FAA folded. Certainly, all sides share blame, but regulators bear primary responsibility for pushing through rules when public safety demands.

Salaries. A dirty little secret in the airline industry is that regional pilots are often woefully underpaid. The co-pilot in the Colgan crash was earning less than $24,000 a year — shockingly low for a person responsible for so many lives. While the FAA doesn't control salaries, it's fair to ask why it didn't hold a "summit" long ago to prod carriers to pay enough to attract and retain top-notch pilots. That, too, is a safety issue.

While U.S. airlines have had an enviable safety record in recent years, the record of regional airlines raises disturbing issues. Since 2003, five of the six fatal domestic crashes have involved regionals, and 135 people have died. Because of code-sharing arrangements, fliers make little distinction between major airlines and feeders. It's time that "one level of safety" becomes a reality.

[Jastapilot]

See, paying more for a pilot doesn't necessarily mean you'll get better pilots. Now, making it more difficult for these 'puppy mill' training facilities to spit out commercial pilot licences by the shitload(by raising the standard)... hence dropping the supply by a factor of 10 or so, that might make a difference in quality, AND increase the pay since airlines would have to compete to get a qualified pilot. It's all supply and demand. There's more pilots than jobs, and there needs to be more barriers to entry.

[Cat Driver]

Now, making it more difficult for these 'puppy mill' training facilities to spit out commercial pilot licences by the shitload(by raising the standard)...

To do that you would need to do two things just to get it started.

First get rid of the need for a FTU OC so people who know how to actually train could open a flying school without the strangle hold that TC now has over the training industry.

Second would be to offer a pay scale to instructors that would attract those who could turn out a higher standard of product than what is being pumped out of the puppy mills now.

[Jastapilot]

Agreed. Unfortunately I was never willing to 'afford' an instructor's paycheck.

[Hishighness]

God, I made way more than she did and I answered phones and sold stock for a living. If I screwed up someone might have lost a little money, if she screwed up people died.

Tell me that's fair. I don't even think it's fair and I'm the one who was making more! I had no idea pilots were so underpaid.

Thanks for posting this.