Rentals and Grass Strips

[MichaelP]

think for yourself initiatives being cast aside.

Surely you mean "Cat's aside"?

Skis:


Years ago Michael Jones was at the London boat show where someone was selling water ski blanks... He had a brainwave.
Turned them into snow skis for the Turbulents and even I had some fun flying skis in the Turbulents (G ASAM and G APNZ).
Then one day the CAA woke up to what was going on, these were certified aircraft using uncertified skis!
Daryl Stinton came down on the first snowy day, test flew the skis, and they were duly certified by the CAA!

(PNZ was famous as Prince Phillip escaped his escorts and went flying in it! Imagine their consternation at seeing the Queen's husband off in a little wooden single seater with a VW 1500 engine on the front!). I haven't flown 'RNZ above.... yet!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Imagine what the responses would be if this thread was posted in 1930

My dad soloed at the Hamilton Airport when it was "downtown" in 1930 after 4.5 hrs dual. (Hamilton had the first paved and lit runway in Canada but the guys still liked the grass better)
The DOT inspector drove up from Toronto .
For the flight test the examiner asked him to do 2 figure 8's , one spin, and a landing that had to end at a certain spot on the runway.
The examiner sat on the ground in his convertible the whole time.
My Dad landed walked over the examiner handed him his new license and went back to T.O. Simple !!!!!
Dad is 90 flew for many years and thru a war too boot. He definitely laughs at the " dumbing down of aviation" as it is described in this forum.
My god, some people think that you need endorsements for grass, tail draggers skis etc.
First time I flew on skis , was the first time I also installed a set myself.
My check out? I sat down beside an old high time pilot and said what do I need to know?.
His briefing: just remember you have no brake to stop short or to turn tight on the ground.
End of lesson...I went ski flying .....solo!!
Try that in todays "hold your hand forever flight training"
I now fly a 1940 biplane , no gps just paper map, no radio except for airshows. I get from A to B just as easy as everyone else and just as safely,. We don't need half the crap they try to spoon feed us !!

Personally I am getting tired of the old canard that "back in the day" we all solo'd in 5 hrs and got our license in 30 hrs. Implicit in this argument seems to be the point that flight instruction today is totally "broken", flying instructors don't know what they are doing, and they all milk every student for the 100 hr PPL. I utterly reject this argument. I think that the relative proportion of Good, Bad, and Stupid pilots was pretty much the same in 1950 as it is today. Could flying instruction be improved, absolutely, but returning to the Ministry of Transport 1950's PPL sylabus is not the way to do it. Finally if everyone in the good old days was so talented how come the GA fatal accident rate in 1950 ws 2.5 times the rate it is today....


Standing by to be flamed

[MichaelP]

My point was about the original point of this thread... Grass strips.
In 1930 they would be astonished if you could not land on a grass strip... You would then be very limited on where you could go.
Indeed you would perhaps be forced to select a good field yourself near a gas station enroute from time to time!

[fleet16b]

Imagine what the responses would be if this thread was posted in 1930

My dad soloed at the Hamilton Airport when it was "downtown" in 1930 after 4.5 hrs dual. (Hamilton had the first paved and lit runway in Canada but the guys still liked the grass better)
The DOT inspector drove up from Toronto .
For the flight test the examiner asked him to do 2 figure 8's , one spin, and a landing that had to end at a certain spot on the runway.
The examiner sat on the ground in his convertible the whole time.
My Dad landed walked over the examiner handed him his new license and went back to T.O. Simple !!!!!
Dad is 90 flew for many years and thru a war too boot. He definitely laughs at the " dumbing down of aviation" as it is described in this forum.
My god, some people think that you need endorsements for grass, tail draggers skis etc.
First time I flew on skis , was the first time I also installed a set myself.
My check out? I sat down beside an old high time pilot and said what do I need to know?.
His briefing: just remember you have no brake to stop short or to turn tight on the ground.
End of lesson...I went ski flying .....solo!!
Try that in todays "hold your hand forever flight training"
I now fly a 1940 biplane , no gps just paper map, no radio except for airshows. I get from A to B just as easy as everyone else and just as safely,. We don't need half the crap they try to spoon feed us !!

Personally I am getting tired of the old canard that "back in the day" we all solo'd in 5 hrs and got our license in 30 hrs. Implicit in this argument seems to be the point that flight instruction today is totally "broken", flying instructors don't know what they are doing, and they all milk every student for the 100 hr PPL. I utterly reject this argument. I think that the relative proportion of Good, Bad, and Stupid pilots was pretty much the same in 1950 as it is today. Could flying instruction be improved, absolutely, but returning to the Ministry of Transport 1950's PPL sylabus is not the way to do it. Finally if everyone in the good old days was so talented how come the GA fatal accident rate in 1950 ws 2.5 times the rate it is today....


Standing by to be flamed

BPF

The GA fatality rate is lower now for a few reasons.
- more regulations about where what and how we can fly
- safer aircraft designs
- better instruction
Please note there was a time when if a pilot had not soloed in 10-12 hrs he had to do a check ride with a CFI to see what the issue was.
Now 15-18 hrs seems the norm. Why ??????????
I have been around pilots of all ages and the skill set tends to vary.
It may be because of attitude not just skill. There are some pilots out there with exceptional attitude and then there are the ones that think they are "hotshit " and all other GA pilots are w/end warriors.
I love nothing better than to be cornered by one of those idiots and serve them a huge slice of humble pie. It's just too easy to ingnore.
The attitude seems to directly affect their airmanship ie blocking gas pumps , running up with someones a/c behind them cutting in on the circuit or t/off line up . All of these things I have seen. Many by young CFI's or instructors
Like most people , I have seen some great instructors and some really bad ones.
Unfortunately , it is a fact there are some pretty rotten and uncaring instructors out there and they seem to ruin everything for the good ones.
Personally I feel many are just too young and immature and get thrust into positions of authority a little too soon and have no idea how to handle it. Their soft skills are atrocious.
We look back to simpler times because things like the PPL training have been added to and changed so much that it might as well be a commercial license.
That is one of the reasons we now have a Rec License. So that people can enjoy flying as a hobby and not get charged up the ass for something they don't want. There was public demand and a market for it.
Time and time again I hear from new students how the school talked them out of the Rec License because it is "too dangerous" which ofcourse is bullshit and the reason people say the Schools are just trying to get more money out of you. That and the massive circuits I see many schools teach their students. If the rec license is all that dangerous, them why don't the schools just say "no" we won't offer hit ?. Why ? because they want the money thats why!!! cha ching
Now before any of you go and bash the Rec License.
Fact: it has been proven safe by it's track record. Many now have it and we are not seeing any of the horrifying predictions that the Flying Schools and Instructors tell their potential students about.
If you don't believe me, then just consult the accident reports that are published by TC.

[fleet16b]

Anyway sorry to hijack things with my previous rant above.
Back to grass fields. I fly 95 % of the time off garss and have had a few forced landings over the years.
IMHO , every school should teach and encourage their student to be proficient in grass fields.Especially for forced approach training which they should actually have to land during.
If you fly long enough , you will end up in one eventually.

[MichaelP]

Fact: it has been proven safe by it's track record.

That's not been my experience!

I will talk almost anyone out of the Rec Permit for many reasons.
It is too restrictive for many people and so we must qualify the person asking about it and establish if it is right for that person.
I knew the first pilot to be given the Rec Permit at PFC when it was new. He bought a Mooney 231 and flew across the mountains at 12,500 feet on oxygen... Not ideal. later I got him through the PPL in that aeroplane.
You can't fly into the USA.
You can only carry one passenger.
You can't fly at night.

As instructors we must be very careful about the advice we give people. Make sure the licence or permit is right for that person and the restrictions and privileges are what that person needs.

Too many rec permit people really want to do more and it costs them a lot more to do rec and then do the PPL if that is what they really needed.

[fleet16b]

Fact: it has been proven safe by it's track record.

That's not been my experience!.

Please elaborate with proven recorded evidence.
IE : accident / violation reports etc.

The last reports I saw about 2 month ago, were full of PPL and CPL pilots not Rec pilots.

I do agree that the Rec is restrictive to some and it is the Instructors duty to help a fledgling pilot make the right decision.
Scaring the crap out of them with false stories is not one of their duties. That is just a cash grab.

[fleet16b]

[/quote]
the GA fatal accident rate in 1950 ws 2.5 times the rate it is today....:[/quote]

????????? Where did you come up with that stat ???
Interesting, please give me the link to your source.

[niss]

An aircraft that has a bad reputation on short strips is called a Cherokee 140, and yet with the right technique it doesn't perform too badly, just know when to select two notches of flap.

Why does it have a bad rep, and what do you consider to be short?

[iflyforpie]

An aircraft that has a bad reputation on short strips is called a Cherokee 140, and yet with the right technique it doesn't perform too badly, just know when to select two notches of flap.

Why does it have a bad rep, and what do you consider to be short?

There was a Cherokee 180 that crashed off a 1,600 ft strip we used for training when I was in Penticton (it actually is in the Christian Valley, to the east).

The pilot forgot to set 25 degrees of flap.

The tiny laminar-flow, Hershey bar wing with even tinier flaps isn't the best for short strips. The wing has better ground effect though and Cherokees are usually lighter than the equivalent Cessnas (by a bit) and Beeches (by a lot).

I'd say the Musketeer/Sundowner would be the worst for short strips though. Wing smaller than a 150 and 300 lbs heavier empty than most Cherokees.

[MichaelP]

I always remember a CAA accident report in which the pilot elected to test the strip by taking off alone prior to taking passengers out of there.
He hit the fence and crashed in the next field "thereby proving that he could not take passengers" the report said, in a Cherokee 140.

The important thing to do in a Cherokee 140 is to leave the flaps UP, get the nosewheel out of the dirt and then pull two notches on the flap handle (25 degrees). The aeroplane performs well doing this.
It's remarkable how this technique improves the Beech Musketeer and Sundowner performance as well.

Know your aeroplane before testing its performance I suppose.

[Cat Driver]

If I had not joined Avcanada and had the opportunity to learn here I would never have known how wrong I have been about this aviation thing.

My real problem of course was being unlucky enough to have learned to fly in an era where instruction was sub par and only the really lucky or highly skilled managed to survive without killing them self.

I can only imagine how much better a pilot I would have been had I had the privilege of learning from the instructors of today rather than the ones I was unfortunate enough to have had.

This realization was reinforced a couple of days ago when I was at the airport working on an airplane and watched a student and an instructor doing touch and goes in a Cessna 172, I could only marvel at the consistency of every landing as they never varied circuit after circuit every touch down was exactly the same....all three wheels contacted the runway at the same time...well there might have been one slight difference when the nose wheel appeared to have contacted the runway first.....

At least I have learned not to make a fool of myself over on the flight training forum anymore...so even us old dogs can learn.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If I had not joined Avcanada and had the opportunity to learn here I would never have known how wrong I have been about this aviation thing.

My real problem of course was being unlucky enough to have learned to fly in an era where instruction was sub par and only the really lucky or highly skilled managed to survive without killing them self.

I can only imagine how much better a pilot I would have been had I had the privilege of learning from the instructors of today rather than the ones I was unfortunate enough to have had.

This realization was reinforced a couple of days ago when I was at the airport working on an airplane and watched a student and an instructor doing touch and goes in a Cessna 172, I could only marvel at the consistency of every landing as they never varied circuit after circuit every touch down was exactly the same....all three wheels contacted the runway at the same time...well there might have been one slight difference when the nose wheel appeared to have contacted the runway first.....

At least I have learned not to make a fool of myself over on the flight training forum anymore...so even us old dogs can learn.

I see sport trolling is still alive and well in Avcanada

[Cat Driver]

I see sport trolling is still alive and well in Avcanada

Yeh, but every once in a while the first catch has to be put back in the pool to allow it to mature.

[square]

It never ceases to amaze me how dumbed down aviation has become over the past few decades, when flying off and onto grass airports is looked upon as an endeavor that requires some special talent can it get any dumber?

you're making too much sense again cat, duck for cover

as for myself i don't think i even get to go to one real airport on this two week rotation.. just taking hunters and fishermen into any survivable patches they can find.

[Shiny Side Up]

It never ceases to amaze me how dumbed down aviation has become over the past few decades, when flying off and onto grass airports is looked upon as an endeavor that requires some special talent can it get any dumber?

My only comment would be that the above being slightly in error - that in assuming its aviation that is dumbed down. The airplanes after all are no dumber or smarter than they were since the flyer first flew. The bureaucracies that run things like aviation are operating on the same principles since they were doling out grain in Babylon. Which leaves us the last part of our equation - the pilots themselves.

Increasingly pilots (and people in general) are willing to give up responsibility for percieved safety. They place their personal safety in the hands of the regulators and the insurance people rather than take it upon themselves. They place it in technology rather than skill. You see this especially increasing in the general aviation crowd. Airplane renters especially make rules which have to take into account the flying majority out there, rather than the few who are willing to step up to the occasion. The majority unfortunately are willing to wallow in mediocrity.

[MichaelP]

Two comments I hear from people visiting from Europe:

1. The number of police everywhere here.
2. The lack of sense of self preservation in people.

1. Television shows and gang warfare in the news means the police forces grow in popularity.
2. People step out to cross the road without looking... ICBC will pay if they get hit and it's your fault not theirs.

So the population has a different way of looking, feeling, sensing, life.
North America has become a place where people are educated by the television and witout doing much for themselves and getting their own real life experiences.
I think people are being dumbed down before they enter aviation.

[hairdo]

I think that grass field flying has been very fun, and yes it can be forgiving... until it gets misjudged. Would said renter consider that (as previously mentioned) it might be safer to take off downslope with a tailwind? Or would they go upslope and towards some large obstruction, just because the winds are 5kts favouring the upslope? Are they honestly going to pick a point on the runway where they say, if I'm not off (or on) by here, I'm not going (or I'm going around)? And stick to it? I know a good number of student pilots (and licensed pilots) who think that because they've done "soft field takeoffs" that it's a piece of cake and nothing to worry about, even though they've never went to an actual soft field (and yes, most of the time soft is forgiving. But once in a while it just might come up and bite you). So I guess what I'm getting at is, do these pilots actually know what they are doing, do they have the "god" complex, and do they have the balls to say no when everyone else says yes. I doubt that you can determine that from talking to the guy on the phone, and I doubt that most schools/ clubs can afford the loss of an aircraft, even if it is covered by insurance.

My 2 cents.

[Cat Driver]

I hear that it will soon be illegal to land on grass because of the high risk involved in operating an airplane off paved runways.

That will end all this hand wringing and everyone will be safer.

[hairdo]

Oh ., there's nothing wrong with landing on grass, I think it's fun. But some people have a problem forgetting that it's not the big local airport where they can screw up and still be fine.

[Cat Driver]

Oh ., there's nothing wrong with landing on grass,

Thanks, I feel quite a bit better knowing that there may still be hope that there are still pilots who feel that way.

I'm getting a bit senile and paranoid because I have not had the indoctrination that is now part of how to teach flying so you have to cut me some slack on this stuff.

[hairdo]

Oh ., there's nothing wrong with landing on grass,

Thanks, I feel quite a bit better knowing that there may still be hope that there are still pilots who feel that way.

I'm getting a bit senile and paranoid because I have not had the indoctrination that is now part of how to teach flying so you have to cut me some slack on this stuff.

I take my students there whenever I can, which hasn't been often as of late (stupid rain) as I think it's a very good experience for them. I also believe that the more real experience that they can get, the better. But hey, that's my opinion and not everyone agrees with me.

The only problem that I have with people landing on grass is when they think that they are more capable than they really are and decide to do something stupid. (But then that applies for everywhere, not just grass).

[Cat Driver]

The only problem that I have with people landing on grass is when they think that they are more capable than they really are and decide to do something stupid. (But then that applies for everywhere, not just grass).

Don't sweat it because that type of person can hurt them self faster on pavement than on grass.

If we could go back to the days when pilots started their training on grass fields in simple airplanes such as Cubs and Tiger Moths we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[fleet16b]

If we could go back to the days when pilots started their training on grass fields in simple airplanes such as Cubs and Tiger Moths we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Exactly

[Cat Driver]

If all new pilots had to start their training on a Cub, Citabria, or some other simple tail wheel airplanes on a grass field until their first solo just imagine how much better their overall flying skills would be.