I have landed at sloped runways, probably not as many as you have, but enough to know that, yes landing downslope is risky and can be stupid if you don't consider all of the factors. I agree that landing upslope is quite frequently better than down. You might note that I said; "I think that's reason enough to land on an approach and landing surface that is downhill... so long as the winds are of decent strength." However, to land with a very stiff tailwind can be just as stupid. It depends on how much of a slope the runway has and how strong the winds are. If the benefit of the upslope is overridden by the benefit of a headwind, then landing upslope is now stupid.Just another canuck wrote:Having landed on many runways where overshoots are not only prohibited, but impossible, I am a firm believer in get it right the first time... hit your spot. Greasy landings are never necessary. If you're floating, raise your flaps and put it down. Landing 28 at this airport, you should be able to hit the numbers every time.hairdo wrote:Safer until you are in an aircraft that can't stop on the remaining runway. I understand that landing on 28, overshoots are prohibited. So, screw it up on the approach to 28, doesn't matter, you're landing anyway, overrun or no. Screw up on the approach to 10, and you can (and as we saw, should) overshoot and try again. I think that's reason enough to land on an approach and landing surface that is downhill... so long as the winds are of decent strength.
I can't believe anyone would want to land downhill... it's stupid, IMHO. A ten percent slope will more than compensate for a 10 knot tailwind... hairdo, how many sloped runways have you landed on BTW? Just curious...
Runway overrun caught on tape.
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
Gravity lands us, we just make it look good.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
It's an example bucko. Though I just read the Aztec approaches short field at 70 knots, so that would make it 2.4 times longer landing roll with a tailwind than headwind.Just another canuck wrote:Does that look like a flat runway to you? And who's doing 90 knot approaches there???square wrote: Assuming a 15 kt wind with a 90 kt approach, it'd take double the distance to land one way than the other on a flat runway. v^2.
Last edited by square on Fri May 29, 2009 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
So basically what you're saying Canuck is that the hundred or so landings which take place there every day are all done in error. The thousands of pilots who've all been there a bazillion times are all, as you say, "stupid". The companies that have been flying in there since the runway was made, are all letting there pilot's get away with stupidity. The regulator doesn't care that these pilots are risking their aircraft and lives on every flight.Just Another wrote:Having landed on many runways where overshoots are not only prohibited, but impossible, I am a firm believer in get it right the first time... hit your spot. Greasy landings are never necessary. If you're floating, raise your flaps and put it down. Landing 28 at this airport, you should be able to hit the numbers every time.
I can't believe anyone would want to land downhill... it's stupid, IMHO. A ten percent slope will more than compensate for a 10 knot tailwind... hairdo, how many sloped runways have you landed on BTW? Just curious...
Makes perfect sense to me.
If all those people had only known they could have pm'ed 'just another canuck' to get a real lesson in adverse runway operations.
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2083
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
- Location: The Lake.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
I never said it couldn't be done safely, but what's the better option here?... in my humble opinion, I think it's stupid UNLESS that tail wind is out of control... in that case it may be safer, but if it's that windy maybe you shouldn't be there in the first place. I imagine the turbulence coming over that hill wouldn't be very nice. I've landed at shorter runways at altitude with 12-13% upslopes with 15 knot tail winds. The guy in the original video should have overshot and landed on the other runway. Coming the other way, you can come in right off the water and touch the numbers every time.
Here's landing from the other direction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSGbyO0I ... re=related
Looks good to me. What do you think JigglyBus? Tail wind vs. Down slope, I'll pretty much take the tail wind every time. According to google (may not be accurate), the slope there is 10 degrees. That's more than enough to counteract a good tail wind.
BTW, I'm stating my opinion... no harm in that.
Here's landing from the other direction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSGbyO0I ... re=related
Looks good to me. What do you think JigglyBus? Tail wind vs. Down slope, I'll pretty much take the tail wind every time. According to google (may not be accurate), the slope there is 10 degrees. That's more than enough to counteract a good tail wind.
BTW, I'm stating my opinion... no harm in that.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
10 is the preferred runway at St.Barts unless the wind is very light, which it rarely is, or on the rare few days a year when the wind comes from the west.
The approach to 28 is undesirable for a host of reasons, including downdrafts, windshear, opposite direction departing traffic, no overshoot, people on the beach 2 feet from the threshold, etc etc.
I've done it both ways hundreds of time, in several different types. It used to be shorter, and much more narrow.
Nevertheless, the pilot in question obviously touched down too late, for what ever reason. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say he tried to go around and both throttle cables snapped just as he was applying power
You never know.
The approach to 28 is undesirable for a host of reasons, including downdrafts, windshear, opposite direction departing traffic, no overshoot, people on the beach 2 feet from the threshold, etc etc.
I've done it both ways hundreds of time, in several different types. It used to be shorter, and much more narrow.
Nevertheless, the pilot in question obviously touched down too late, for what ever reason. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say he tried to go around and both throttle cables snapped just as he was applying power

You never know.
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2083
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
- Location: The Lake.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
JigglyBus wrote:Nevertheless, the pilot in question obviously touched down too late, for what ever reason. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say he tried to go around and both throttle cables snapped just as he was applying power
You never know.

Okay, you've done it, I'll take your word for it.

Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
-
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 5621
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
Short-ass little strip with somewhat gnarly approaches, and all of that beautiful, blue water. Have these people not heard of float planes? 

Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
- fortis risk
- Rank 4
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:21 am
- Location: Low and slow
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
North Shore, that's a great question?
Fools take to themselves the respect that is given to their office. Aesop
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
St. Barth's is not a big deal at all. Having been in there literally a thousand times (I've kept track in my logbook) I would say that any average pilot can handle this strip. It can be a rough ride when it's windy but as long as you know your limits (like when to go-around if you've used up 3/4 of the runway) it's no problem. The approach and landing to the east (runway 10) is by far the safest option as it allows you to get the hell out of dodge quickly and safely at any point during the approach. Landing on 28 is great when the winds are calm but I can tell you it's a butt-puckerer when the winds are strong (and anybody that's flown in there will know the 28 approach is necessary but difficult when the winds are 010-040 above 15 knots). Oh, and the average slope of the runway has got to be more like 2 degrees but I don't actually know for sure. It was never a problem for anyone I knew landing with the downslope even in calm winds.
I had to laugh when I read the comments on this thread about people thinking that this is a dangerous airport...because when this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVdaFv6kbkw airport comes up in on AvCanada everyone is saying how easy it is and how's it's nothing compared to flying up north. Well, I can tell you that Saba is far more dangerous to fly out of than St. Barths....and both of them are nothing that a professional pilot shouldn't be able to handle.
p.s. Any runway is dangerous if you land on the last 200 feet of it.
I had to laugh when I read the comments on this thread about people thinking that this is a dangerous airport...because when this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVdaFv6kbkw airport comes up in on AvCanada everyone is saying how easy it is and how's it's nothing compared to flying up north. Well, I can tell you that Saba is far more dangerous to fly out of than St. Barths....and both of them are nothing that a professional pilot shouldn't be able to handle.
p.s. Any runway is dangerous if you land on the last 200 feet of it.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
It's not dangerous in a helicopter.p.s. Any runway is dangerous if you land on the last 200 feet of it.

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2083
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
- Location: The Lake.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
The Porter might do it with a real good upslope.HavaJava wrote:p.s. Any runway is dangerous if you land on the last 200 feet of it.

Here's a couple of the ones I went into:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgv1TvJnWBM&NR=1 Landing at Ilu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EoTC0LvaGY Landing at Sinak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvZMuERiUIk Takoff from Mulia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8mx5ERztE Landing Faowi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyW6Bhk0 ... re=related Landing Mulia
These are not my vids, nor am I in them.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
Looks well planned to me. Lands right on the beach grabs his lawn chair and coronas, no friggin 2 hour bus rides. Bobs your uncle. 

Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
Sounds like that bird is ex-US Airways, operated by the US Dept of Justice in that video.bic wrote:Looks like that pilot is now flying for US Airways......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoXMcehrYo
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
He touched down with 3000' remaining. A little different than the first video.
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
- twinpratts
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1621
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:38 am
- Location: The Wild Wild West.
- Contact:
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
Pretty poor taste, Buddy.Invertago wrote:Right when the guy gets out you can see the "Jazz" logo on his name tag.
However, if you don't touchdown til the thousand footers (at the FAR end), you might consider opening the taps, and getting out of there.
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
In a light twin you should be able to touch down way before the thousand foot point on the near end.However, if you don't touchdown til the thousand footers (at the FAR end)
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
I haveStrega wrote:Auxbat,
Have you ever flown an Aztec? Im guessing not.
Do you know exactly what the conditions of the day were?Strega wrote: I have around 1200hrs in Aztecs, all on wheels, and I from what I have seen in the Vid, this is 100% pilot error. With full flaps, fill fine pitch props, and idle power, an approach "down hill" is no issue for a qualified pilot.
Saying the guy is an idiot doesn't prove, mean or help anything.Strega wrote: Here is my constructive bit,, make getting a pilots license much more difficult, in order to keep morons like this away, and the best and brightest people in the cockpit.
Going for the deck at corner
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
Judging by the video it was VFR with a Xwind of about 10 to 15 knots at around 20 degrees from the right.Do you know exactly what the conditions of the day were?
Do you need a forensic examination of the conditions to come up with the conclusion that the conditions were good enough that one should be able to figure out they were to far down the runway to touch down safely?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
Oh give the guy a break. Maybe he had to pee!
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
I'm not arguing he shouldn't have overshot, however I'm arguing that doing that approach was easy and the guy is an idiot for not doing it successfully, like Strega says.Cat Driver wrote:Judging by the video it was VFR with a Xwind of about 10 to 15 knots at around 20 degrees from the right.Do you know exactly what the conditions of the day were?
Do you need a forensic examination of the conditions to come up with the conclusion that the conditions were good enough that one should be able to figure out they were to far down the runway to touch down safely?
Going for the deck at corner
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
no way that's a 5.7 degree slope, it'd be pretty enormous.. just think, you approach the PAPIs at a 3 degree slope.. so the runway would slope down about twice as much as your approach path? that's pretty major
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
You can set PAPI's to almost whatever angle you want.
There's a tolerance, but I can't remember for the life of me.
There's a tolerance, but I can't remember for the life of me.
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
Re: Runway overrun caught on tape.
CP wrote:Oh give the guy a break. Maybe he had to pee!
I think the landing took care of his need to pee!
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.