Do you always backtrack to take off?

[randallg]

I was at YVR south today and saw a twin prop (Dash 8, Shorts, something like that) do an intersection departure from the south terminal on 26L. Looking at the CFS he probably had more than 6000 feet. If I was a passenger on that flight it would not have bothered me.

[Cat Driver]

What do they teach in human factors?

Judging by the lack of critical thinking by so many here maybe they should have another look at what is being taught.

Or better still have another look at who are teaching it.

[Shiny Side Up]

What do they teach in human factors?

Judging by the lack of critical thinking by so many here maybe they should have another look at what is being taught.

You're thinking of PDM, since human factors is all those things like what happens when people are subjected to a lack of oxygen. You're right though, they should look at what's being taught because there's not much - its really closer to high shool "life management" classes that are being taught if you look at the material that section covers. Unfortunately decision making is the human being's prime failing point. Personally I reccomend Mr. Diamond's book Collapse and specifically the chapter A Failure To Anticipate for a good summary on why people make poor decisions.

I mean really, do we honestly think that the 3 hours as laid out in most private ground school TC approved syllabuses is really enough to indoctrinate anyone to not do stupid stuff? Even if the entire 80 hours of commercial groundschool was dedicated to the subject we would still have people out there doing unwise things. Hell, every commercial pilot has already made one generally unreasonable decision - after looking at the long hours, low pay, they still decided to make it their career. Most people have atrophied or poorly developed their decision making skills long before they became pilots.

Or better still have another look at who are teaching it.

Are you looking for a job here? If you have some magical means of changing people's ability in this area, personally I'd pay good money if you want to write a text book on the subject.

[Cat Driver]

Are you looking for a job here? If you have some magical means of changing people's ability in this area, personally I'd pay good money if you want to write a text book on the subject.

A text book on how to channel pilots decision making ability is the last thing that is needed as there is already far to much printed matter on these subjects.

My suggestion would be to use the hours that are spent with students in the airplane and on the ground to better explain the reasons " why " one should make decisions.

[KAG]

Trey and others
When talking about backtracking I'm assuming this thread was talking about low powered single trainers. Not King airs, maul rockets, float planes, 100 miles runways, the space shuttle and such. Yu can come up with an example to debunk any argument if you really wanted to. This is flying, and no one set of rules applies to all situations, and learning to think outside the box is key.
But when talking about low time pilots in a training environment with clapped out or even new trainers, why not backtrack? What harm is it give yourself that extra insurrance policy? I see nothing wrong with it.

Online with a high(er) preformance aircraft, you don't need to backtrack, especially with twinns. Personally I rarely backtracked, especially in the Northern ONT example.
But a student or even myself as a renter of a single engine trainer, I'm going to backtrack.

It's not following a student mantra, or just doing it because thats how I was taught. I've learned from personal experience.
Flame away.


PS, dug up this thread from a couple years ago, same topic. My pinions haven't changed.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33406&hilit=+london

[Shiny Side Up]

A text book on how to channel pilots decision making ability is the last thing that is needed as there is already far to much printed matter on these subjects.

There is another possibility of course and that is simply no one is reading this material anyways. Either way the wisdom and knowledge there in is lost.

My suggestion would be to use the hours that are spent with students in the airplane and on the ground to better explain the reasons " why " one should make decisions.

Do you think then that there is none of this used towards this purpose at all then? In some respects I will agree with you - the commercial pilot's licence is a time building excersise which in no way rewards those who challenge themselves, or make the good decisions. Unless the poor sould gets killed in the attempt (perhaps by maybe making a poor decision on whether to backtrack or not...) any fool can get through the commercial licence. The system encourages very little scenario based training and its totally up to those poor inexperienced few to input it as they can.

All in all, I think those doing the training are for the most part doing the best they can within the current framework to try and prepare pilot students for the world out there. There are exceptions to this of course and we all know the stories of terrible flight schools who's purpose is to make a fast dollar out there. Personally I find that the hour based system currently used handicaps good instructors from encouraging better from their students and enables the bad operators out there to ply their trade.

[the hustler]

My simple answer, No.

Here's a scenario for you:
Gravel runway, 3500' long, Northwestern Ontario. Taxiway is 200' from threshold. Do you backtrack that 200', turn around, kick up a load of gravel, feed some to the Pratts, and go; OR do an intersection takeoff, rolling around the corner, already as fast or faster than you would have been had you back tracked, and with a lot less damage from the gravel.

(I think my opinion is hidden somewhere in that description...)

I didn't know it matters that a strip is in NWOnt or not - If I'm empty I go from the intersection in such a case - however when loaded, I take the extra 200 feet.

Speaking of gravel damage, yesterday I got the joy of watching a King Air Medevac do three laps of the gravel ramp, picking up all kinds of rocks. One time they even made it onto the taxiway before they decided they should turn around (not into wind either) and do another lap. It was entertainment, on an otherwise boring afternoon.

[Cat Driver]

Speaking of gravel damage, yesterday I got the joy of watching a King Air Medevac do three laps of the gravel ramp, picking up all kinds of rocks. One time they even made it onto the taxiway before they decided they should turn around (not into wind either) and do another lap. It was entertainment, on an otherwise boring afternoon.

Why were they doing that?

[the hustler]

Well, from what I heard on the radio, there was a PC-12 on short final, with a metro about 8 minutes behind him. 4000' runway, with only one taxiway 200 feet from the end.

The King Air was on a pad, started up, the -12 taxied off and parked, the king air moved to the middle of the gravel ramp, sat there picking up rocks, did a lap halfway onto the pad and came back to the same spot off the pad, stopped, metro called final, king air taxied onto the taxiway, metro touched down, kingair turned around on the taxiway and taxied back to being halfway on the pad and turned around and stopped off the pad, waited for metro to taxi onto the pad and then the king air took the runway. I just sat there and shook my head.

The problem with airmanship, I find, is that you don't always notice the instances of "good" airmanship, and they miss praise, while the poor airmanship sticks out like a sore thumb.

[Cat Driver]

The King Air was on a pad, started up, the -12 taxied off and parked, the king air moved to the middle of the gravel ramp, sat there picking up rocks,

AAhhh and then some pilots moan that they are not paid enough.

[Doc]

Perhaps this is the reason so many companies require cash up front before they hire new pilots. To pay for the props these nit wits will surely ruin. Morons.

[Cat Driver]

I get a lot of flack for suggesting that aviation is getting dumbed down.

How do two pilots get to the place they are allowed to fly a King Air and still don't understand how to operate one without thrashing the props?

[xsbank]

What was the question? Oh, right. Almost always.

[beaverbob]

I usually backtrack, but not always on floats.

Politicians backtrack a lot. Just listen to them.

Bob

[Shiny Side Up]

How do two pilots get to the place they are allowed to fly a King Air and still don't understand how to operate one without thrashing the props?

In this case you're mistaking apathy for ignorance, though the result is the same. In my experience people do know better, but largely do things like this because they simply don't care. They don't see the problem as being theirs. They might even view it as a reasonable risk, probably to save time or effort. I mean something I see all the time is how much grief pilots will put an airplane through to avoid walking say an extra twenty feet across the ramp. But then its all about that whole pilot decision making process we were talking about before.

[Cat Driver]

In this case you're mistaking apathy for ignorance, though the result is the same. In my experience people do know better, but largely do things like this because they simply don't care.

Maybe they would care if they had the cost of fixing the damage deducted from their pay?

And once the cost was covered fire them.

[Shiny Side Up]

Maybe they would care if they had the cost of fixing the damage deducted from their pay?

And once the cost was covered fire them.

Personally I'm generally inclined to grab them by the scruff, drag them to the shop and tell the AME he's got some slave labourers until the job gets fixed.

[B-rad]

In this case you're mistaking apathy for ignorance, though the result is the same. In my experience people do know better, but largely do things like this because they simply don't care.

Maybe they would care if they had the cost of fixing the damage deducted from their pay?

And once the cost was covered fire them.

Or maybe if there was ANY kind of filter for pilots in the first place then these idiots wouldn't get a licence in the first place.

[Cat Driver]

Or maybe if there was ANY kind of filter for pilots in the first place then these idiots wouldn't get a licence in the first place.

And therein lies the real problem.

[roger.roger]

So never let anybody who doesn't know how to deal with gravel......deal with gravel........cat you would make an awsome instructor, to bad every pilot wasn't born at the controls of a canso

[niss]

Or maybe if there was ANY kind of filter for pilots in the first place then these idiots wouldn't get a licence in the first place.

And therein lies the real problem.

niss --------- thank-you, but I ain't part of some 'inner sanctum' of knowledge. It's all there for anybody to find out easily if they care to know and have the mental ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.

I can rub my tummy and pat my head at the same time? Is this sufficient ability? Apparently it's enough to be a pilot.

Oh......and it tales more than that to be a pilot. Sorry 'bout that.

That's not what Cat Driver has been saying for a while

:D

[polar one]

To hijack this rather interesting thread.

There are three things which alway come up at our company with new hires.

1. Most pilots really dont know how to deal with taxiing on gravel. Simply never taught, and it is so common that it is a part of both the ground school initial and the flight training and CUS training.

2. Most new pilots dont have a clue how to clean a windscreen properly. We here all sorts of rationals, and this has been the topic of previous threads, but it is one thing we ask the pilots to do themselves after training.

3. Companies do not provide proper supervision or have proper communication between maintenace and operations.
When a plane comes back and it is noticed at the next daily inspection and mentioned to the CP, it becomes very clear which pilots/crews dont seem to give a rats butt about about proper aircraft procedures, and it can be rectified.

The simple truth is , particularily in the last few years is the new, young pilots who have never really worked before have a real sense of entitlement. They simply look at some jobs as the step to their next career goal and thus do not treat aircraft well, or consider any other things then flying the plane. Include that with the attitude some of the colleges imbue in their pilots and you really only get lip service to learning. It typically takes us about six months to get pilots to fit smoothly into the system before things are done as they should be. As an interesting sidenote, pilots who have improperly taxied will tell you they simply forgot (accepted one or two times), or come up with every reason for expediency, efficiency etc. But then add an extra minute or two on a flight so they can "round up" to the next decimal without any thought that they have taken .1 off the maintenance interval, engine and prop overhauls etc. And the bottom line is, in many cases, simply poor management and supervision. Minimum training and cut them loose.

[Cat Driver]

So never let anybody who doesn't know how to deal with gravel......deal with gravel........

Yeh, that is the answer.

cat you would make an awsome instructor, to bad every pilot wasn't born at the controls of a canso

I know the PBY is not a machine that most pilots would like to fly, however knowing how to teach others how to fly one allows me to make a thousand dollars a day and travel all over the world all expenses paid.

Oh, by the way I have flown other aircraft.

[Doc]

At least, the PBY and, for that matter, a DAK, the props don't tend to get too dinged up by gravel.
I almost never backtrack. Backtracking is for girly men. That's why Gawd created flaps!

[AOW]

I almost never backtrack. Backtracking is for girly men. That's why Gawd created flaps

So that was you doing the intersection departure in YPM???