Thunder is Hiring

Legacy · Post by **Legacy** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:20 pm

Confuzed i will be the first to say it but if i insulted you, and yes it may exactly sound as that i know, i am sorry. I get beat red whent he topic of training bonds come into play. I feel for ya about the family supporting thing. i was there too once. I did tell a few companies to "go piss off though". I agree bitching and whining doesnt do anything. BUT i don't only do that (pilots bitch yeah right) BUT i do do my part and refuse to sign training bonds. That is what WE can do. And if ALL pilots did so do you really think that companies like Jetsgo would have closed their doors because we refused? not likely. not after spending the millions to get the company up and running. Leblanc would have a bitch of a time trying to explain that one to investors. And same goes for the companies that been around for 20 years. Do you think they would close the doors because of it? No way. I have stated just the other day. Why don't employers agree to promisary notes? They are legally binding. Is the pilot at risk of 30K? Nope. And the employer is protected as well. Why must they insist on taking our hard earned money away from us. its SEVERE BS. Anyways, sorry if we rubbed each other the wrong way. I don't even know you so I can't make a judgement on you. Hell you are probably ones of my friends. lol

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:32 pm

Legacy wrote:Confuzed i will be the first to say it but if i insulted you, and yes it may exactly sound as that i know, i am sorry. I get beat red whent he topic of training bonds come into play. I feel for ya about the family supporting thing. i was there too once. I did tell a few companies to "go piss off though". I agree bitching and whining doesnt do anything. BUT i don't only do that (pilots bitch yeah right) BUT i do do my part and refuse to sign training bonds. That is what WE can do. And if ALL pilots did so do you really think that companies like Jetsgo would have closed their doors because we refused? not likely. not after spending the millions to get the company up and running. And same goes for the companies that been around for 20 years. Do you think they would close the doors because of it? No way. I have stated just the other day. Why don't employers agree to promisary notes? They are legally binding. Is the pilot at risk of 30K? Nope. And the employer is protected as well. Why must they insist on taking our hard earned money away from us. its SEVERE BS. Anyways, sorry if we rubbed each other the wrong way. I don't even know you so I can't make a judgement on you. Hell you are probably ones of my friends. lol

Oh no worries dude, I'm not one to hold a grudge and am sorry as well, didn't mean to snap at you if it appeared so...I'm a gemini and love to debate I guess

I hear exactly what you're saying, and I don't much like the idea of bonds myself. However, when they are becoming a common thing and you know that the next guy into the interview room will say "yeah, I don't mind a bond" then you're pretty much stuck when you need a job. Especially if you can't afford to go around the country and have to stay within a prescribed area for what your funds are. The thing that I find the most despicable (and me and doc have different views on this I know) is when someone goes and say does that course out in Vancouver for say an A340, or B27, or B757, or navajo, etc... with no job to go to. They just up and shell out $5000-$30000+ just to have the type rating. That's the one that I don't understand and don't respect. When a company tells me they have a bond in place to make sure I don't go AWOL after my ride I can understand that. It's not just because a company doesn't treat their guys right, it depends what's going on. Pre-judging a company that way isn't right. I mean, look at Bearskin for example back in the late 90's. They lost 14 guys in one day!!!! All of them moving on to Air Ontario (when it was that)....that's a lot of guys to re-train only to have them stick around for a week or so before getting scooped up by afore mentioned airline. As an operator, can you REALLY justify spending THAT much money as non chalantly as many people say they should? Saying that it's a cost of doing business? Man, that's a huge pile of dough to lose don't you think? I've just come to the point now where I say, whatever....I know it'll change back one day, I'll ride the wave. If a HUGE group of people were to rise up and say screw that, well then yeah I'd jump on the band wagon. I'm not going to martyr myself because I don't agree with something and cost my family a roof over their head and food in their mouth, that would just be suicide. You have to choose your battles, and I'd rather my battles be telling the company to go screw themselves if they wanted me to do something stupid like fly overweight or below minimums or bust my duty day, etc....

Legacy · Post by **Legacy** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:39 pm

But maybe those guys that bearskin lost were 4 yr employees. in that case the company did get the investment they put into them. and heck if maybe one or two were there for 3 or 4 months, thats a fact of owning a business. See we also have to look at it a different way than u presently are. you think it will get better and bonds will go away. Perhaps it may become like companies like that medevac company in the states where you completely buy you ppc with no reimbursement of any kind. I feel a stand should be made against the training bond. perhaps maybe the promissary note. If an employer that I wanted to work for asked me to sign a training bond i would suggesta promissary note. If they refused I would tell them to suck eggs. They obviously have something up their sleeve. oh well hence the nation wide association. like that will ever get off the ground.

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:49 pm

Legacy wrote:But maybe those guys that bearskin lost were 4 yr employees. in that case the company did get the investment they put into them. and heck if maybe one or two were there for 3 or 4 months, thats a fact of owning a business. See we also have to look at it a different way than u presently are. you think it will get better and bonds will go away. Perhaps it may become like companies like that medevac company in the states where you completely buy you ppc with no reimbursement of any kind. I feel a stand should be made against the training bond. perhaps maybe the promissary note. If an employer that I wanted to work for asked me to sign a training bond i would suggesta promissary note. If they refused I would tell them to suck eggs. They obviously have something up their sleeve. oh well hence the nation wide association. like that will ever get off the ground.

Oh for sure, granted some of them had probably been there for a few years. Just using it as an example really. I agree that promissary notes are the way to go, but at the same time bonds seem to be the current trend. I doubt it will ever go the way of the states up here, I think it just needs to dry up a few pilots that's all. I think the current Canadian industry is sooooo oversaturated and the hiring pool is so huge companies can do pretty much whatever they want. It's an employers market right now....I personally would like to see a different approach to licensing but again pipe dream. When it comes to operators out west in BC that come into focus here quite often and other companies in MB and northern SK, I'd gladly tell them to go "suck eggs". They are just taking full advantage of the situation I think, whereas others may just be trying to prevent others from leaving and that's their best idea. No one said it's a good one, but maybe when that one individual leaves the company and someone new steps into power things will change. Hard to know. For the companies likes JG that want the price of a small house, well I do believe that's just retarded and would never have applied to them. It's a changing industry and I think you have to be able to roll with it or get lost in it.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:12 am

Doc,
I think we are on the same page here for the most part. When I was at Thunder I can only recall one guy coming to work that already had a PPC and he had been fired from his last job. (didn't get his PPC and quit) Strangely enough he only lasted about 3-4 months and Thunder let him go as well. Guess just because you have a PPC doesn't mean you can do the job... As for the captain thing, they used to have pretty high minimums for the Ontario Hydro contract and would occasionally hire a DEC, but for the most part would upgrade their guys if they worked hard and deserved it. I know of guys that started in the office in YPL loading the Caravan worked up to a Shorts captain and are now flying heavies overseas. I guess my I get my back up a bit when people start to slam a good company. I was there for almost 5 yrs and have nothing but good things to say about it.

evalle · Post by **evalle** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:58 pm

I am amazed to see one thing, PASSION. I think no other profession has the same amount of passion that pilots have. I am Italian (sorry for my english) and i came in Canada to seek opportunity in aviation. Where i come from is a mess, it is all about who you know but you can get a job with 3-400 hours and you start your career with a very good salary. Here instead the industry ask you 1500 or 2000 hours, training bonds ans still you have to know someone. Shouldn't be this one a profession like lawyers, doctors, engeneer where you have the chance to start some kind of job after a school and make some "decent money" and work your way up to better and bigger airplane? Are we professional? I know people (instructors) with 1000 hours of local flight, does that make them more safe? training bonds are good only a way to under-pay pilots and don't allow them to leave for better opportunity and this is clear to everybody. I think the all industry in north ameica is based on low-paid pilots because with our passion we would go anywhere in the world for a clean shirt and a sandwich per day, but don't you think we should start to be professionals?

someguy2 · Post by **someguy2** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:35 pm

Worked at Thunder. Loved Thunder. Made a pot of cash at Thunder. I would recomend it to anyone.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:20 am

evalle wrote: Shouldn't be this one a profession like lawyers, doctors

but don't you think we should start to be professionals?

Sorry those professions are run by professionals... But you're right....

spartacus · Post by **spartacus** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:16 am

someguy2 wrote:Worked at Thunder. Loved Thunder. Made a pot of cash at Thunder..

No 'pots' of cash being made anymore.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:53 pm

confuzed wrote:
rigpiggy wrote:Training bond hmmmmmmmm. just like jetsgo. If you can afford the airplane, you can afford the training. If not get out of the sandbox. One more scuzzbag operator.

And those of you who go to work for an operator. if you say you'll be there for 1yr, 18 months, 2yrs. then stick to your word. Scuzzbag pilots one is as bad as the other

Dude, get off your high horse and get with it. There's nothing wrong with the company making sure that you don't piss off with a shiny new ppc card. I think that bonds at places like Jetsgo is a little retarded, but when you're talking about something that's entry level then there's no big deal. When you're getting it paid back with interest there's nothing wrong with it. If you have a problem with training bonds, good luck in todays industry......if you think that you DESERVE it then who do you think you are?? Thunder's actually a great place to work. They don't fly overweight, bust minimums, fly broken equipment or bust duty days. In fact, they give you a minimum of 10 hours rest after every shift. If you fly overweight or bust minimums, you're fired plain and simple. It's been done, and the individual was very quickly sent on their way.

Hey COnfuzed, was offered a captain's position at Air nunavut, he wanted 12k. I told him that I was willing to put it in trust with prorated payoff, if I fucked off within 2 years. He said No, I said pass.... I would offer the same advice for thunder. Offer to put it in trust, if they say no, vote with your feet.

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:46 pm

is that difficult to do?....what sort of fees are associated with setting up a trust for that amount and can u even do it for small amounts?

DragEraser · Post by **DragEraser** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:28 pm

confused......is just plain CONFUSED!

I think the medics get paid more than the NAC fellas. But most of you pilots don't.

Fact: it was a great place to work back when LY, SB, BG, CW, RE, DB, GC, CG, SP and the whole YPL gang (minus marty) were around. But now?

someguy2 · Post by **someguy2** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:55 pm

Wasn't a bad place to work after that too. (atleast for the year or so I stayed on). Pots of money are made by flying miles. I flew lots ad made lots, others didn't

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:16 am

DragEraser wrote:confused......is just plain CONFUSED!

I think the medics get paid more than the NAC fellas. But most of you pilots don't.

Fact: it was a great place to work back when LY, SB, BG, CW, RE, DB, GC, CG, SP and the whole YPL gang (minus marty) were around. But now?

Yeah, you're right.....you've found me out....I don't have a clue

Gee, I wonder why medics are making the bag loads of money that they are??? Ummmmm, could it be that they're in shorter supply then the pilots and can name their price.....I dunno, I'm a little "confused" but that seems to make sense to me, but I'm just a simpleton

You honestly think that if the pilot availability ratio was the same as the medic availability ratio we would make as little as we do?? And you say I'M the one that's confused,

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:05 am

That pilot vs. medic pay thing...it's supply, and demand. Too many pilots, too few medics. But it rots my sox to get payed less than a guy I fly around, who does nothing I couuldn't do myself on 90% of the legs.
And Confuzed...that example of the guy getting a type on a B757 etc. with no job.....it'd be a hoot to have the training....but I sure dont have the bucks.
Gawd, I flew my cute little ass off yesterday...and still made less than my medic...who slept for more than half the legs.....I think I slept for the other half!

DragEraser · Post by **DragEraser** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:08 am

See.....you ARE confused. I was making the comparison between NAC and THU pilot salaries. You stated THU pilots make more than NAC pilots. I stated the only ones making more than NAC pilots at THU were the MEDICS.

That supply and demand thing; been hearing it since '93. THU pilot salaries dropped when the aquisition of scaremed went through and a new mgmt "team" was appointed. Nothing to do with the supply/demand.

spartacus · Post by **spartacus** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:12 am

DragEraser wrote: That supply and demand thing; been hearing it since '93. THU pilot salaries dropped when the aquisition of scaremed went through and a new mgmt "team" was appointed. Nothing to do with the supply/demand.

Exactly.

evalle · Post by **evalle** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:57 pm

I wonder why unions don't help pilots as they do for other categories, i know welders that make 70K per years, should the pilot stick toghether a bit more?
If you have a girlfriend and you make a baby with her, you can make more money with the welfare!!!! Janitors make more money !!!! i spent 60K to get my licences between here an Italy, will i ever see results?

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:39 pm

DragEraser wrote:See.....you ARE confused. I was making the comparison between NAC and THU pilot salaries. You stated THU pilots make more than NAC pilots. I stated the only ones making more than NAC pilots at THU were the MEDICS.

That supply and demand thing; been hearing it since '93. THU pilot salaries dropped when the aquisition of scaremed went through and a new mgmt "team" was appointed. Nothing to do with the supply/demand.

I don't even know what NAC pilots make, so I wouldn't be able to compare