50 hour course

[polar one]

Polar one are you against training after getting the basic multi engine IFR rating , or is it better to just jump in a complex airplane and teach your self because you are already licensed?

The short answer is I am all in favor of training, but your question is a bit off the mark. What you are suggesting, from your question is that a basic multi IFR pilot could just jump in a complex airplane and teach themselves...Well, teach themselves what? How to fly that particualr complex airplane...of course not.
But if you asking if a basic multi IFR pilot should need more basic IF training...then I have to wonder about the how well their basic training was.

This is one of those questions that has a conclusion built in. When it comes to float training, the question should first of all be , how much training is really necessary to make a pilot safe in the basic sense. Of course if the person moves up to a different machine they are going to need to train on that machine.
But these bush courses get a little vague when it comes to about 40 hours of training vs. just getting some experience.
A basically trained float pilot, properly checked out on a company's machine, and given some mentoring and supervision, has the opportunity to learn from experience.
What more exactly is someone taking a "bush course" going to learn? It is something the bush course advocates seem to ignore under the argument that experience with and an experienced instructor is much more valuable than just experience. I am not sure I agree with that for a number of reasons I dont want to get into here. In any event, experience with a an inexperienced instructor is well...
and I did note some time ago, one of the bush course companies advertising for a 50 hour float pilot to instruct...

[Pilot_king!]

So would learning from someone who is a very high time sea plane pilot would be beneficial to me over the learning by trial and error method of flying commercial float planes with nothing more than a basic rating and a check out?

[polar one]

So would learning from someone who is a very high time sea plane pilot would be beneficial to me over the learning by trial and error method of flying commercial float planes with nothing more than a basic rating and a check out?

Your question presupposes that there are only the two alternatives. As such, anyone with an ounce of common sense would suggest the former.. Lets take a moment and discuss both the question and the answer.

The bush course people, for the most part , would like you to view the choice this way. They sort of rely on the fact that those coming into the bush course really dont understand how a commercial float operation runs.
Here is a bit of the reality.
When you are hired by a company, they are required to do training. Reputable companies will not only train to meet the TC mandated minimums, but will train until they are comfortable that you are not going to go out and bend any aluminum, hurt any of their passangers, or destroy their business reputation. And again, reputable companies, even after training will not simply cut you loose to learn by trial and error. Lastly, into the mix, most float operators operate within a limited geographical area, so that a new pilot has the specific mentoring for the job as regards such things as unusual weather, landing zones etc.

All told, if a pilot comes to a reputable company with the basic skills, by the time they complete company training, some mentoring and supervision, all should be just fine. As to the trial and error.Well, even after a few thousand hours pilots sometimes find themselves in a new situation that requires a bit of trial and error. Nature of the business.

The assumption that taking a bush course is going to eliminate trial and error is completely false. In 50 hours, no matter what type of flying you are doing, you simply are not able to get the exposure to all the variables. On the other hand, in 50 hours with an operator your focus is not on trying to learn all the aspects of float flying, but those that are specific, and as one becomes more profecient they can expand their limits. There is nothing better, from an experience standpoint, then to go in and out of the same areas. Allows you familiarilty and builds the experience slowly as conditions change.

I have yet to see anyone post a syllabus of exactly what type of training is going to occur over the 50 hours, rather than a few hours of dual and a bunch of ride around experience. Might as well get that on the job. But then I am not trying to sell a bush course.

Can you get hired by an unreputable company.?. Used to be so. Now they can just require a 50 hour bush course..And, as far as insurance goes, I understand that those who have an insurance requirement of 50 hours dont have the additional requirement that it be part of a bush course.

[Lost Lake]

Hey polar one, don't waste your grey matter on this idiot. The best we can do is say we told you so when he comes looking for a job. He's either on crack, or is so brainwashed by some super saleman that he can't see the forest for the trees.

And people on AvCanada wonder why some of us jump over stupid posters, after we waste our time and energy trying to offer constructive advise. Oh yeah, I just remembered, the youth of today know everything. the more I waste my time typing this the more pissed off I get. '

Hey Polar king, don't forget to ask for the rose colored aviators upon "successful" completion of your course with your high time international 206 pilot.

[Pilot_king!]

Thx Polar one...that is really helpful. The more info I can obtain about bush operators and floatplane operators the better. I am striving for a reputable company, I always wanted to seek a job that I wanted, and not anything on the table. Why? I want my future to go a certain direction and not chase airplanes all my life. So with that mind one final question on your intelligent post, unlike others.

How much more training does a reputable company give you over and above the TC minimums?

[mr.jinks]

Well, King of all Pilots,

Operators aren't stupid. They will train you the way they want you to fly their planes, and ween you onto the operating line. Starting you out with nice and easy flights, they value their airplanes and don't want one dinged up. The more experience you get, the more the leash is let out. Whether you have 7 hours or 50 hours, I have no doubt that you will start out in the same place. Unfortunately the only thing IMO, is that the 50 hours will look better on your resume. You are after all only as good as your personality and work ethic, and that my friend is the only thing that will get you ahead in this business.

[Lost Lake]

Mr. Jinks is correct. You have to pass a PCC before you are turned loose. Since you see very few plane crashes during the season, it is a fair assumption that the operator is using his due dilligence in training their pilots. Bad pilots=bad business. Attitude and a willingness to learn are more valuable than a course. Read all the previous posts.
Tired of trying to offer advice. As someone once said "Do what you like, you're going to do it anyway"

Time for me to move on. Good luck with your course. Send me a resume when you graduate.

[Rowdy]

I'll reiterate the same thing. 7hrs or 50hrs.. it's not going to make too much of a difference. whatever operator hires you is either gonna have you ride shotgun for a bit and work the dock and watch the other experienced drivers or have a big long checkout process before cutting you loose on easy runs.

Hey lost.. you need to just settle down.. do a little divey headbobble and wait for a resume from em

[Pilot_king!]

Wilco on the resume transfer. Whats your location?

Appreciate all the input from all posters.

[Slats]

A big +1 to polar one for articulating what I've always tried to say.

[cessnafloatflyer]

I'll reiterate the same thing. 7hrs or 50hrs.. it's not going to make too much of a difference. whatever operator hires you is either gonna have you ride shotgun for a bit and work the dock and watch the other experienced drivers or have a big long checkout process before cutting you loose on easy runs.

I couldn't disagree more - yes i teach these courses, however i don't teach them for the sake of it, i beleive they have value. demonstrating 5 solo take offs and landings in perfect condtions after hours of circuits demonstrates very little in terms of the real world. This is especially true for the very low time pilots that almost always take the 50 hours type courses.
It makes a lot of sense to go out with en experienced pilot in a quality airplane and learn how to deal with real situations on real days and learn the thought process behind the techniques and how to incorporate safety, then learn how to to it with your hands and feet. Minds come first, then the hands and feet. This knowlege, from mentoring, asking questions, and getting out there is respected in the industry, at least by those who hire my students and really, i have a hard time reading that a 7 hour endorsed pilot has little difference between one who has been out (at least with me) for 50.

An invitation: don't beleive me? Come out for a ride with a 7 hour pilot and then let's go out with a 50 hour graduate - it's very obvious then.

[angry inch]

I have to agree with cessnafloatflyer... as long as you are learning from a pilot with experience.

Yes it's true that an operator will train you to at least the CAR's minimum, & perhaps beyond, up to their own standards whether you are a newb or not. It sure helps if the individual has a solid foundation to build on...

Rowdy, saying there's no difference between 7, or 50 hrs might be true for some...







Common sense is a trait not distributed equally among us.

[Rowdy]

Cessnafloatflyer...

I'm not at all trying to be rude in any way or knock you and your operation. I understand by reputation that you run a good outfit.

My point is this, why spend the additional coin when the operators are going to run you through their own paces and checkout? Plus a good 90% of the entry float jobs are either for twin otter co-pilots (you're gonna have to re-learn everything anyways) or guys who are coming off the dock and are being watched closely by the other line pilots and CP after said checkout. None of the operators I've worked for have ever skimped on the requirements for training and the PCC associated with operating their aircraft. They've all actually gone above and beyond making Both of us feel comfortable. They do not want bent tin and it shows. Even the shady/cheap operators.

Next someone will tell me that you should spend 50hrs in a retractable gear airplane or 50hrs Multi before going out and trying to get a job in the right seat of a king air. I personally dont think it's cost effective at all for a low timer searching for that first job.

I see huge value however in the 50hr program (or more!) for private pilots who are looking at the viability of owning a floatplane or have purchased one already. Heck I'd go so far as to say it should be mandatory! But I'm sure most insurance companies require it anyways so thats a moot point.

I fully agree that someone with decent common sense (lacking in our current society) is going to have learned more in 50hrs with a very competent and experienced instructor than they would in 7hrs. No contest, the more you see and are exposed to under the proper conditions with someone who can show you how to deal with them the better! I also believe your specific students are getting a very good deal based on your aircraft and your experience. However, there are a pile of companies and operators that have float instructors who have not done anything other than teach float flying after being taught by someone before them with 50hrs and MAYBE a scenic tour or two. I'd start rattling off names but then the thread would get pulled. No need for that.

Lets just look at the costs for a second... 50hrs at the advertised rate of 325/hr = 16,250!! Or even say at the rate of 290/hr as the 15hr course would denote, is 14,500!! I'm not at all saying these rates are out of line but thats not a very cost effective means of standing out from the crowd of 250hr guys. Is that 15k going to get you the job over the more eager kid who spent 2k getting 7hrs and then another 3k on a coast to coast road trip, meaning a total outlay of 5k? I find that very doubtful.

I understand the premise and I agree with the experience being passed on in a greater period of time than the simple 7hrs. However I still dont believe its a cost effective means of procuring that first float job or standing out from the crowd on a resume or with a basic phone call.

inch.. good to hear you're still around on the forum I'm sure you've seen some people with 1000hrs that still dont know what they're doing in a floatplane I know I have.

[LousyFisherman]

I see huge value however in the 50hr program (or more!) for private pilots who are looking at the viability of owning a floatplane or have purchased one already. Heck I'd go so far as to say it should be mandatory! But I'm sure most insurance companies require it anyways so thats a moot point.

For private aircraft most insurance companies want 50 hours on floats which does not have to be PIC time. Lowest I have found is 35 hours. Below that, insurance is double or triple that of an equivalent fixed wheel aircraft if available. If you have the time insurance is an extra 1-2 thousand.

But why get all 50 at at once, get 10 hours from cff, see if he'll rent the plane for 10 hours
Move on, get an hour wherever you can, get 10 from the next instructor/owner/pilot who has time available. Rent hours from whoever you can.

Even as a young buck/lady looking for his/her first job, I think this would produce better results, both for training and contacts, than any "course"

Lets just look at the costs for a second... 50hrs at the advertised rate of 325/hr = 16,250!! Or even say at the rate of 290/hr as the 15hr course would denote, is 14,500!!
Is that 15k going to get you the job over the more eager kid who spent 2k getting 7hrs and then another 3k on a coast to coast road trip, meaning a total outlay of 5k? I find that very doubtful.

Assume $20K to start with
Both have to spend the 2K for the 7 hours
Both have to spend $5K road trip living and travel costs
Leaves 13K

Lets use $300/dual and $200/hour for solo. $100/hour for gas/costs when flying with new friends
- $6K 20/hours dual with 4 different instructors
- $4K 20/hours solo
- $2K 20/hours dual flying for costs

More hours, less money, more flexible cash flow, probable more and better contacts since you have established "business" relations with them. I believe most people could or should be able to improve the flying with friends number.

The cash flow is especially important since the job offer may come from the 1st, 2nd or 3rd pilot that taught you, rented a plane for solos to you and was impressed with how you treated it. You justed saved the money that was destined to buy hours.

YMMV
LF
taking notes on places and people to buy 1, 2 or 10 hours

[angry inch]

Incorporating as much float flying as possible into your 200hrs for CPL is a good thing to do if you want to be a seaplane pilot. I think I had around 60 hrs on floats when I finally busted through the 200TT mark...

[Keely]

Now someone has said something that is helpful and makes a whole lot of sense. But it may do away with the need for the conterversial 50 hour course and we would have nothing to read about on the Forums.

[CoastFloater]

Incorporating as much float flying as possible into your 200hrs for CPL is a good thing to do if you want to be a seaplane pilot. I think I had around 60 hrs on floats when I finally busted through the 200TT mark...

VERY good point made here...during the training phase, schools seem to like to send you to the same place numerous times. Although every opportunity to fly during the training phase will be valuable time to practice skills and learn, diversification of the type of time spent in the airplane will only make your skills sharper in the end. Consider a pilot with 200 hrs TT with the "usual" qualifications and has been everywhere locally for a burger. Now consider another pilot with 200 hrs TT with float, tailwheel, aerobatic, cross border, etc time. Who has a better mix of skills to pool from?

Everyone has stated that experience is important (no brainer)...go get some experienceS while you are spending your dough!

[Pilot_king!]

As I mentioned before, I told you guys I would report my experience with the 50 hour Bush Course on AVCANADA.

Worth it - 100%. You could spend 15K on a brand new truck and after 5 years you would have nothing.

My instructor/mentor was an excellent pilot to fly with and learn from. I was able to meet lots of operators on the West Coast and dock in over 25 different water bases. He introduced me to each and every pilot he knew. This type of experience is a great start to anyone’s float flying career.

I ended up getting a job near the end of the course; Randy Hanna's reference boosted me into working the docks alongside a fleet of Twin Otters for this season.

If you are looking for a well known pilot and advanced instructor. Allow me to recommend, the Seaplane Academy.

http://www.seaplaneacademy.ca/

Happy float flying!

[cessnafloatflyer]

I have had 4 50 hour students this year get flying jobs. Okay, not entirely true, 1 is a load master at Tindi, the rest have float flying jobs. The jobs are out there and a reputable trainer has connections that will help.
http://www.oceanair.ca and ask for Dave.

[Randy Hanna]

Shame on you Dave for pouncing on any opportunity to advertise yourself when the post is about a new float pilot's career, one that he's excited about. The whole topic is about the merits of the training received, not a competitive opportunity to "....just ask for Dave". I rarely ever post as I am so busy. That's a statement all in itself. I might have more time if I had only completed four 50 Hour courses, but the training the young fellow is speaking of relates to his desire to fly Twin Otters eventualy and so he came to someone who does, along with a desire to learn more than the minimums. Cheers to all you float pilots out there. Its great working with you all.

[cessnafloatflyer]

Glad to hear that you are so busy Randy --
I was answering this:

My point is this, why spend the additional coin when the operators are going to run you through their own paces and checkout? Plus a good 90% of the entry float jobs are either for twin otter co-pilots (you're gonna have to re-learn everything anyways) or guys who are coming off the dock and are being watched closely by the other line pilots and CP after said checkout.

So they not all off the dock and got the jobs because they were well trainied and ready to go. And oh yeah, i have nothing else to do but post here because i am not busy at all, like you.

[Lost Lake]

As I mentioned before, I told you guys I would report my experience with the 50 hour Bush Course on AVCANADA.

Worth it - 100%. You could spend 15K on a brand new truck and after 5 years you would have nothing.

My instructor/mentor was an excellent pilot to fly with and learn from. I was able to meet lots of operators on the West Coast and dock in over 25 different water bases. He introduced me to each and every pilot he knew. This type of experience is a great start to anyone’s float flying career.

I ended up getting a job near the end of the course; Randy Hanna's reference boosted me into working the docks alongside a fleet of Twin Otters for this season.

WOW!!! Pilot King congradulations on spending $15K on an intro service who got you a job WORKING THE DOCKS!! Holey shit, you must be so excited to have spent all that money not to fly. I really don't know what else to say.

Good luck, you'll need it! Oh, by the way, I don't hire dock hands, I hire pilots, so no need to apply.

If you are looking for a well known pilot and advanced instructor. Allow me to recommend, the Seaplane Academy.

http://www.seaplaneacademy.ca/

Happy float flying!

[Pilot_king!]

I'd rather work for a promising company than work for a fly-in fishing lodge, that is seasonal and cheap.

I would never work for a prick like you. Congratulations on making the black list.

[iflyforpie]

I'd rather work for a promising company than work for a fly-in fishing lodge, that is seasonal and cheap.

I would never work for a prick like you. Congratulations on making the black list.

The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.

With 50 hours of floats, a shiny aviation 'diploma', and some dock time; your list of assets isn't very long should things not work out (very possible with anything aviation). I blacklisted people and companies too, but I was willing to pay the price of not flying for a few years. Are you?

Don't let a little razzing ruin a potentially good career.

[Lost Lake]

I'd rather work for a promising company than work for a fly-in fishing lodge, that is seasonal and cheap.

I would never work for a prick like you. Congratulations on making the black list.

You'll soon learn that most promising companies will offer you a raise, more float time, a chance to fly, a chance to upgrade, etc. They're always promising.

As for working for me, don't worry. Oh, just ask the pilots I have working how big a prick I really am. I don't yell, I teach, encourage, listen and give them as much flying as they want or can handle. I take the shit trips, give them time off when ever they ask (Not turn a rain day into an off day like some operators), Play it by the CARS for ops and loads. No accidents, no violations. And our new hire has no Cessna time, just a good work ethic and willing to learn. Should do 200 hr plus his first year. Maybe you'll be able to load his plane next year when he gets a job at your Promising company!!

Good luck there DOCK BOY on your new FLYING career. (Is that an oxymoron?)