Saying No

[Cougar]

...you are making a decision to violate not only the trust the public should have in pilots you have violated your own self worth.

All pilots (and all aviation personnel) have to make their own decisions as to what they deem acceptable. This is such an important topic -- I don't even know how to condense it into a few sentences.

I personally believe it is the pilot's DUTY to do the best they can, every time, no matter what, and sometimes those decisions may be made with imperfect information. You can only do the best you can do, with the information you have, in the situation you're in.

I worked for years to get into a job I thought would be THE best. It turned out that 95% of the people were corrupt, with a few who even bordered on loony. I said No, and No, and NO, and was finally fired --- for putting an unairworthy aircraft in the shop. I was locked in a room with the so-called "management", and told I could have my job back, IF I "never told anyone what goes on here".

I told them "Go to hell." They came after me with a vengeance. But, sometimes your enemies are even more valuable than your friends, because the fact that they fired me has turned out to be one of the best compliments I could have gotten.

Life can sure work in funny ways, but, if you are honest, and can look yourself in the mirror tomorrow morning, then the rest of all this baloney will surely work out fine. Twenty years from now, what are you going to wish you'd done? Go from there.

[. ._]

I think women pilots are better at this.

They always tell me "no" when I ask them to do something illegal or immoral.

-istp

[Sulako]

A pretty basic rule in aviation is if the Airplane Flight Manual says "don't do that" then don't do that. A complimentary one is "don't bust minimums".

What's your career worth? What's your life worth?

When you bust regs, you are making the assumption that the flight is going to be uneventful and quickly forgotten, and that's true most of the time, but it's a hell of a gamble to make - it erodes your safety margins, and you are painting a target on your forehead for TC to aim at if anything about the flight proves to be eventful.

If you break the regs, you are liable in the event anything goes wrong. Flying over the legal gross weight of your aircraft is breaking the regs, even if other identical aircraft have higher legal gross weights.

Maybe I'm an idealistic fool, but I'd be far more inclined to hire someone who was fired from their previous job for refusing to break regs than hire someone who knowlingly broke regs - if you are willing to fly over gross, that tells me you are willing to engage in other risky flying behaviour, and in my world (corporate) that is absolutely unacceptable.

As far as the second scenario presented, if I was flying with someone on a non-precision approach where the MDA was 1,000' and I saw them down at 900' and they failed to correct, my next calls would be "Go around, set go-around power, flaps to 15."

There is a big difference between flying at the edges of your aircraft's performance envelope and flying outside them, even if you deem it to be safe. The difference is it's your ass hanging out in the wind if you are doing something illegal - you can be absolutely sure your employer would tell the TSB "We would never encourage our pilots to do what that guy did".

"The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no"

Cat driver's sig is just one line, but it's really all-encompassing, and I think it would be a good thing to repeat to oneself before any duty day.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for the compliment Sully, when it is all over for me I can only hope I have left behind something positive for those who will keep aviation going.

[Cat Driver]

Cougar your experience is only to common in this industry.

In the final analysis we have only our self to answer to and it is far easier knowing we did what was right regardless of the price.

Even when we do things the right way there is no guarantee that our career will be better because sometimes those you stand up to have the power to destroy your career to protect their own.

If that happens move on to another part of the globe and in the end you will benefit from the loss you suffered by doing it right.

Power is a fickle thing and those with the most power usually end up with the greatest loss when their time comes.

[KAG]

Tim
About the BE 200 question, if I remember correctly from flight safety, the original 200’s were designed and tested at 14,400LBS. It was determined that there was not a market for a plane that small due to the regulations in place (6 month recurrent, designated 2 crew, ETC) and that it would better serve the sub 12,566 market.

The 200 is an anomaly in the 703/704 world in that you can load it “over gross” and it will fly safely, if not legally. I don’t recommend flying over gross at any time, but the 200 was designed to do it and it will with gusto.

That said I really don’t recommend flying over weight in a BE100, the same safety margins don’t apply, it’s a ditch pig.

[Shiny Side Up]

"The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no"

Cat driver's sig is just one line, but it's really all-encompassing, and I think it would be a good thing to repeat to oneself before any duty day.

I will say that its right up there in one of the hardest things you'll ever do in your life, and I can remember the first time where I walked off the job because I felt it what was being asked of myself wasn't safe. Its a pretty rotten feeling sitting at home having made yourself unemployed and wondering if you can find work again after what you did - I was brought up with the attitude that "no one likes a quitter" after all. While I hate thinking about it, I remain convinced that it was the right thing to do. It was a good learning experience, in the end it didn't take me that long to find another job. The important part was learning how to say no.

[Cougar]

In the final analysis we have only our self to answer to and it is far easier knowing we did what was right regardless of the price.

Even when we do things the right way there is no guarantee that our career will be better because sometimes those you stand up to have the power to destroy your career to protect their own.

Yes, Cat, very true. I'd always thought I was a pretty good judge of human character, and when I was fired (man, there are so many layers to this, but, they all need beers to be shared properly ), I was STILL stunned to see people I'd previously admired SLINK away to hide in the invisible shadows...some, to save a fat retirement.. some, from sheer spinelessness... it was amazing, really.

And, also, a few guys I hadn't flown with in YEARS came forward and offered to do anything to help me in the battle. I fought it -- I knew I was right -- but "power" has a strange way of affecting people's ability to speak truthfully. I watched the entire "management" structure lie under oath -- hey, who needs "B" movies!! People star in their own misguided mind-movies every day....

It's still one of the strangest events I've experienced -- two grown men cried (one of them my lawyer!), at how the rat bastards got away with firing me, but -- like you said -- we only have ourselves to answer to. I knew that what I did was right, and all these years later, it is STILL right. But, it's not at all easy to be personally attacked.

I will say that its right up there in one of the hardest things you'll ever do in your life, and I can remember the first time where I walked off the job because I felt it what was being asked of myself wasn't safe. Its a pretty rotten feeling sitting at home having made yourself unemployed and wondering if you can find work again after what you did - I was brought up with the attitude that "no one likes a quitter" after all. ...The important part was learning how to say no.

BOY, are you right on this part. I was brought up with a pretty tough work ethic, and I had to tell my family I had been FIRED -- I mean, lazy losers are fired -- people who steal are fired -- guys you can't trust are fired -- it was probably the worst part of the entire mess. But, people who are true to themselves can quickly see when you are being true to YOURSELF. It turned out to be a non-issue; they trusted my judgment. But I had taken so many potshots by then, I was practically see-through... I was worried the "label" would overshadow the very real issues.

And -- the 'creme de la creme' -- I was hired over the phone, by a man I'd never met, because word of my character DID get out through the small world in which we work. Like I said above, your enemies can say as much about you as your friends, and in this case, it got me a great job. It's sure as hell nice to be on the other, FAR, end of the spectrum as the scumbags I used to deal with.

A pretty basic rule in aviation is if the Airplane Flight Manual says "don't do that" then don't do that. A complimentary one is "don't bust minimums".
What's your career worth? What's your life worth?

"The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no"

Cat driver's sig is just one line, but it's really all-encompassing, and I think it would be a good thing to repeat to oneself before any duty day.

This says it. Thank you, all.

[Cat Driver]

Yes, Cat, very true. I'd always thought I was a pretty good judge of human character, and when I was fired (man, there are so many layers to this, but, they all need beers to be shared properly ), I was STILL stunned to see people I'd previously admired SLINK away to hide in the invisible shadows...some, to save a fat retirement.. some, from sheer spinelessness... it was amazing, really.

I am now well past any desire to fly for a living Cougar but my phone rings at least once a month from people who want me to work for them for short periods of time and some of the offers are really tempting.

All of the offers are because of referrals.

My wife got a little nervous a couple of days ago when I told her I would like to put a big engine in the Mong and race the sucker at Reno....

That is not really going back to work you see, it is playing with a neat toy.

I was STILL stunned to see people I'd previously admired SLINK away to hide in the invisible shadows...some, to save a fat retirement..

Same here, in fact I can still see the look on the face of one of TC's top management when I forgave him for remaining silent in a meeting my lawyer and I had with four of TC's top management ordered by the DCGA in an attempt to cow me into letting them get away with moral wrongdoing that would embarrass the Mafia.

Things had gotten way out of control because I knew it was futile trying to receive anything near fair treatment in a meeting designed to sand bag me hoping I would quit.

I was afraid he was about to go against the other three so I turned to him and said xxx don't say anything because you have to many years into the system to risk it for something both of us know is hopeless. The best the poor bastard could do was go home and stand in the shower and try and clean off the stench of having been on the side of the table with the creatures he worked with.

In the end my life got progressively better and better, and even after I retired I was recruited by the Greek CAA as an adviser for the setting up of the sea plane rules that will be used under EASA.

Much later I asked the person in the Greek CAA why he hired me knowing my background and my issues with TCCA, his answer was simple and to the point.

He said we talk to each other all over the world and everyone assured me you are trustworthy.

That for me means more than anything they could have said about something as unimportant as how well you fly an airplane.

So I understand how you feel.

[Cougar]

Much later I asked person in the Greek CAA why he hired me knowing my background and my issues with TCCA, his answer was simple and to the point.
He said we talk to each other all over the world and everyone assured me you are trustworthy.

That for me means more than anything they could have said about something as unimportant as how well you fly an airplane.
So I understand how you feel.

You've had a wondrous career from all accounts, and I haven't done near what you have, but I'd like to think I can still learn in this industry, even after decades.

We both are lucky to have enough time and distance from these events to view them with fair perspective, but AT THE TIME, I was threatened, pulled off the flight board, even shunned. All behavior that any 2nd-grader would recognize. It sucked -- pure and simple. But, the WORST part was when they pulled aside the senior, most-respected pilot they ever had, and actually said "YOU have a nice house up here... and a good job... we'd sure HATE to see you LOSE it..." -- because he stood up for me.

I was done for -- any blind man in a dark closet could see that -- so I BEGGED him to just "slink off", too. I told him to just STOP defending me -- because he, too, would lose his job. He had just a few years until retirement. He was a superbly talented pilot, who'd basically carried their weak asses for years. It tormented both him AND me, that they turned on him... it was disgusting, really.

But -- the idiot! -- he simply was incapable of joining their party, and he stood up for me until the end. They made his life hell. In the midst of all that, he wrote a letter saying my "integrity was without compromise." I literally cringed when I saw it, and envisioned myself calling his wife to say how sorry I was that they were now living in a cardboard box under a bridge, but -- he did what HE felt he had to do.

I hope no one else has to go through such miserable events, just to do the best they can at a stupid job, but... I guess we never know what we're in for in this lifetime.

[Cat Driver]

But -- the idiot! -- he simply was incapable of joining their party, and he stood up for me until the end. They made his life hell. In the midst of all that, he wrote a letter saying my "integrity was without compromise." I literally cringed when I saw it, and envisioned myself calling his wife to say how sorry I was that they were now living in a cardboard box under a bridge, but -- he did what HE felt he had to do.

Which in the final analysis is priceless.

I try to not dwell on the times I was truly despondent and feared that I was doing the wrong thing, as you know it is sometimes hit and miss if you will have the will to go on.

But look at us now.

[Cougar]

Heh, heh!!

Good one!! Yes, with luck the dark days are gone...

Beers are on me!! (Uhh, can I borrow 20 bucks??)

[Cougar]

I think women pilots are better at this.

They always tell me "no" when I ask them to do something illegal or immoral.

-istp

Whee hee, ISTP,

I like this!

[casey]

Question new hire guy 2500 hrs .Older guy lots of hours around the airways.
On a 12 to 13 day leg(Maybe a two day flight )
R/H RMI starts to act up not slaving to the Bosses HSI .You are lucky because of the GPS.
Now the L/H eng starts to spool a little slower.Weak batt on intial start?
Fine start snag fixed.Land at ABC r/h inbd brake seems to to be seeping a bit.Although zero loss of braking evident.
OK now we are on are 7 leg of the day.
Acording to the walkaround the l/h inbd tire seems low( Tire tread looks good )
Here we go again after takeoff prop deice indication l/h side seems low but seems to be shedding ice as per visual with the ice lights on on and vibration feel.
Maintenance is at the most a good days travel.
Sure some is in the MEL but we have some compounding sqawks.
Are you going to bring the bird home are ground the girl
Please note the Cap and AME have dicussed the snags and agreed on the ramifications(If any other sqawks come up).( flight manuel,Mel,CDI etc )
Are you a soldier keep on trucking
And your wife /girlfriend/boss is waiting for you at home.
Now are your second last leg into YXZ one more stop to end your pairing(Almost home )
The left stab boots seem not to be working( Thanks it is not severe icing maybe a chance of a tad of icing )
What you gentleman/ladies do

[Cat Driver]

It is difficult to give any advice when you describe these issues as " seems" especially the low tire pressure.

Generally something is either working or not working or normal or not normal.

[Hedley]

At the risk of getting severely flamed ....

Any pilot learning to fly needs to know that there are two airplanes.

One is the physical airplane. The other is the paper airplane.

You need both to be in good shape - and here's the lesson - they are only loosely coupled.

You can have a mechanically great airplane, with no paperwork (eg lost logs). It's practically worthless.

You can have a physically horrible - with lots of cracks and corrosion - airplane, with great paperwork. It's worthless, too - just that nobody knows it yet.

You need both a good physical airplane - so it works - and you need good paperwork, so you are not attacked.

For example, flying overweight. Let's say you want to ferry an aircraft across the North Atlantic. You might want to install extra fuel tanks, and fly it over max certified gross weight. To do this, apply for a Flight Permit.

You have to learn to push paper. He who has the most paperwork when he dies, wins

[iflyforpie]

Hedley, you're supposed to bring up the Venn diagram with one circle representing the paper plane and the other the physical. The only planes that you are supposed to fly is where the circles overlap.


The existence of the paper airplane was the first thing I learned as an AME. One time, I signed off a work card but didn't put a maintenance manual reference. QA kicks it back and I have to re-write the statement with a reference. I didn't even touch the aircraft but after putting the reference in, somehow everything was fine. I might have only looked at the table of contents.

Since people in QA were programmed to kick back cards without reference, we would have to make up references for the tasks that weren't in the maintenance manual (like removing a bird's nest).