ACPA to fight Jazz's 757 acquisition

[Troubleshot]

When WJ arrived advertising "cheap travel" and offering "discount fares" they did more damage to this profession than Jazz could ever do by perpetuating the Walmart mentality that is plaguing our industry today. Cheap Cheap Cheap is all people are looking for and WJ made it front and centre in their advertising campaigns. It was easy than when they paid crap and everyone was on first year pay scales but things have changed and now they're no longer a discount carrier, thank God but the damage has been done.

Bringing standards down? Seriously? We'll see what the new pay scale is in the new contract than we'll talk.

Please explain what damage has been done? Oh you mean flying being affordable to the general public? That was going to happen one way or another, Westjet or not. The train was once only for the rich and famous...get where I'm going with this?
What is wrong with a company flying people from A to B and actually turning profit? That profit isn't being taken from my pay or that that of my peers.
Our grooming saves the company millions, finances the next NG coming online. I get paid very well, but I'm not beyond cleaning a plane, and down the road making 200K+ I will still be there picking up trash because it helps my company save money, and to be honest I'm not too full of myself to lend a hand.

I gotta agree with KAG on this one. I would disagree if WestJet wasn't making any money but we all know this isn't the case. They have a formula that works for the company and the passengers (guests I mean). If another company cannot compete in the market place it either has to re-invent itself or fall by the wayside.

[yycflyguy]

Before you all get a sore hand from patting yourselves on the back, I would like to point out that historically Westjet was lucky to be in the position they were in back in 1999-2000. The forced CAIL/AC merger left a huge void that allowed them to grow into their domestic/leisure niche. Yeah, I get that the pilots grooming the plane saves on groomers but don't be fooled that their "unique" business model was what allowed them to grow to where they are today. It was taking advantage of the market at the appropriate time... not some genius business plan.

[tailgunner]

This is an interesting read. I do find it ironic though. The WJ backers are now tooting the horn of free market forces, of the policy of adapt or " fall by the wayside". Someone even suggested that the other airlines had plenty of time to prepare for Wj's arrival. Yet they convieniently forget that when WJ started, they, WJ, creid foul, and sought protection from the very same market forces that they now trumpet. Thay fought against the big bad existing airlines that were forcing capacity into the market that poor Clive was trying to get a foothold on. Thay complained about artificial conditions that were being created by others. They complained that AC and Canadian were unfairly targeting WJ in the west by using their resources from their eastern operations....Just an observation.

[KAG]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

[rudder]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

Yes. And that went really well, didn't it

[Localizer]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

Yes. And that went really well, didn't it

Its pretty safe to say Zip was failed before it began. It was too late .... had it been started sooner it may have had a chance.

Kag .. its nice you enjoy the Westjet life and that you think flying should be made affordable .. But personally, I believe an airline should charge a fair rate for their flying .. for themselves, employees, and the customer. 2 days ago the Globe and Mail had an advertisement for Westjet .. $49 dollars in Canada .. Thats cheaper then Greyhound .. and again cheapens us all .. Whats next?? Jetsgo 1 cent return fare?

Happy grooming!

[Big Pistons Forever]

WestJet is consistantly profitable and pays its narrow body jet pilots more than any other Canadian airline. To me this would imply that they are charging the "right" amount for each seat. The bottom line is long term airline success is entirely predicated on competant management....not aircrew wage levels. No North Amercain airline has cut its way to stable profitability yet.......

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I was waiting to hear that name....."Jetsgo".....talk about lowering the bar....bunch of Georgian pilots paying $30grand to get some jet time so they could end up in China....

[KAG]

This was before my time, but wasn't ZIP created to battle WJ in the West?

Yes. And that went really well, didn't it

Its pretty safe to say Zip was failed before it began. It was too late .... had it been started sooner it may have had a chance.

Kag .. its nice you enjoy the Westjet life and that you think flying should be made affordable .. But personally, I believe an airline should charge a fair rate for their flying .. for themselves, employees, and the customer. 2 days ago the Globe and Mail had an advertisement for Westjet .. $49 dollars in Canada .. Thats cheaper then Greyhound .. and again cheapens us all .. Whats next?? Jetsgo 1 cent return fare?

Happy grooming!

Loc, market stimulation aside (every company does it, both seasonally and in new markets) isn't that what've been doing -Charging what’s fair for the company, employees and customers while turning a good profit? I mean were in the black and paid well, what are people bitching about.
Oh no I have to pick up some used news papers and cross a few seatbelts, life is rough here at Westjet.
3 years ago I was told in my initial that our grooming saves the company 9 million annually; that was then, we’ve grown. If I have to do a few extra duties to keep my company healthy and in the black (and me gainfully employed), then so be it.

[Localizer]

If I have to do a few extra duties to keep my company healthy and in the black (and me gainfully employed), then so be it.

Thats really funny ... this line makes it sound like you're willing to "lower the bar" in order to keep your job ... if you have to of course ...

[KAG]

Loc your fishing.
The extra duties I'm referring to primarily include the grooming the plane so many here take offense to. Other duties may include, but not limited too: getting coffee for the crew (who doesn’t like a star bucks every once in a while), buying the crew a bottle of duty free booze to help kick the night off (those LAS overnights can get pricey), and the super strenuous rolling someone’s wheelie bag or holding the odd infant. Yes I am truly over worked

Seriously man it's all good. Were all here to make some $$$, and enjoy life. The view isn't bad either. Different paint jobs, same childhood dreams. Just a slightly different perspective on things. Enjoy those big t!ts those 57 have.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I clean the cabin too....but we only have 9 seats....

[rudder]

Shouldn't this incredibly important debate be covered under it's own thread called "Why I Love to Cross Seatbelts"? This thread has 3 relevant words in the header - ACPA/JAZZ/757.

Talk about thread creep...

[Localizer]

Shouldn't this incredibly important debate be covered under it's own thread called "Why I Love to Cross Seatbelts"? This thread has 3 relevant words in the header - ACPA/JAZZ/757.

Talk about thread creep...

Don't worry .. we're on topic .. the subject is misleading.

Loc your fishing.
The extra duties I'm referring to primarily include the grooming the plane so many here take offense to. Other duties may include, but not limited too: getting coffee for the crew (who doesn’t like a star bucks every once in a while), buying the crew a bottle of duty free booze to help kick the night off (those LAS overnights can get pricey), and the super strenuous rolling someone’s wheelie bag or holding the odd infant. Yes I am truly over worked

Seriously man it's all good. Were all here to make some $$$, and enjoy life. The view isn't bad either. Different paint jobs, same childhood dreams. Just a slightly different perspective on things. Enjoy those big t!ts those 57 have.

I watch too many political shows .. I guess thru that i've picked up the art of spin doctoring. I really have nothing against Westjet or Canjet .. I think there just people trying to earn a living for their families. I know a lot of people at both companies and they all love their jobs, which is what it really boils down too.

So with that being said .. same happens on the Jazz side .. we're just trying to earn a living and enjoy our lives.

Cheers.

[Flying Nutcracker]

A few things on grooming...

Grooming itself is not really that fun. But, grooming is the time of the day where the entire crew actually joins in and does something together and show the spirit of working together and doing their share as a team, or family if you wish. The more I do, the less the others will have to do. That's how I feel.

It also gives me personally a life lesson about how careless we are as humans when it comes to trash and thinking about others. The lack of consideration and respect for the next guest, just because we paid some money to go from A to B is mind boggling to say the least. Parents travelling with kids, with no desire to ask their kids to exhibit at least some form of tidiness, or not have the decency to ask for help to keep things somewhat under control from a cleanliness point of view, seems to be an increasing trend!

It looks like a movie theatre after "Avatar" sometimes!

I think for those of us who do grooming, it gives us a chance to appreciate the importance of being good humans and cleaning up after ourselves, be it on an airplane or anywhere else. And my kids will be educated to understand the importance of this very thing in the hopes of making life a cleaner place!!!

It's not fun! But it is worth it, in more than a cost saving way!!! And if you're trying to find a political "spin" on this, there is none!!! It's an observation based on what I see when I groom.

FN

Yeah... we're right on topic!!!

[HavaJava]

Well, isn't that special!

[crankedup]

The rumour I hear is that it will be ex-Skyservice pilots flying the TC 757's under contract to JAZZ. I wouldn't be too surprised if it turns out to be ex-Skyservice 757's as well.

Who would a guy talk to if he wanted to jump on this bandwagon in order to do a bit of 757 flying incountry ?

Any idea what these guys plan to pay a captain for this work?

[davesok]

As a 21 year Jazz employee I have witnessed more than enough of ACPA's bull. Guy's get over it!! Those finding the need to vent, posting that which Jazz may or may-not do, should get educated first. Why continue the bad blood. As a commuter I have spent hundreds of hours in Air Canada's jump seats and many with A/C's pilots in mine. I have scores of friends flying there. It's time for the shit disturbers to shut the f--- up.

As far as what the pay scale will be on the 757's, it will be as high as we can get it. Get the work first, do a good job and than improve the wages, ASAP. Think about it, West Jet's wages were a joke at one time, how many of us think they are now??

There are far more important things to worry about, than "Jazz is going to screw up Canada's wage scales). We have the highest paid Dash 8 and CRJ pilots in North America!

[Black Cat]

For the minority at ac who hate jazz and see them as your competition; re direct your anger to your CODE SHARES agreements, EG. Uniteds and the swath of rj and embrier providers such as skywest who pay a fraction of what Jazz pays. They are the real threat to Canadian aviation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ


ACPA is paid by thier members to cause waves. There are many AC ppl who are happy for us Jazzers. Jazz would never risk its biggest customer for TC.

Picture for a minute those 757s going to westjet. Westjet got the Thomas Cook 737 flying, ACPA should be careful what they wish for. AC has been giving up domestic capacity to Westjet STEADILY for the last 10 years to a point that they are close to having 50% of the market. Is your union willing to let your REAL competition get their hands on an aircraft that they can really compete with you? I dont believe the majority would be so small minded.

I can assure you all that a majority of my colleges at Jazz dont give a flying FK about the 757. We choose to stay at Jazz because its a good place to work, good ppl, and good benifits. Not because we want to big aircraft. We do want the company to grow, but not by breaking our backs, and certainly not at the expense of our industries future. We are ready to strike, and we are ready to leave this industry before we degrade it to the level of the American regional. And believe me, i have been told personally by senior management from Halifax, the competition is not westjet, its the skywest, mesaba, colgan, and their code share pushes into Canada. Both AC and WJ unions should be fighting tooth and nail against using pilot slaves south of the border, it is niether saftey minded, nor ethical.

Forward this link to all your friends who drive south of the border because its cheaper. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ

[yycflyguy]

Both AC and WJ unions should be fighting tooth and nail against using pilot slaves south of the border, it is niether saftey minded, nor ethical.

Ya gotta take care of your own backyard before trimming the neighbours hedge.

[Dust Devil]

It was taking advantage of the market at the appropriate time... not some genius business plan.

Is there a difference between the two?

[yycflyguy]

Absolutely. A unique and creative business plan offers a new angle on an existing product. In Westjet's case, their success was greatly influenced by the vacuum created by the CAIL/AC merger. External factors that they had no control over nor could they plan for in their "genius" business plan. They were able to fill the void based on good timing, good luck and good fortune.

Now before everyone goes off on me, there is no doubting that their single type, company culture and product isn't top notch... just recognize that there were other historical factors in their success.

[KAG]

Lots of luck and good timing can/will tip the balance, We were lucky. Take Enerjet for example, right plane, right location, smart managers, and dedicated crews, all perfectly positioned to make their mark in the oil patch. Then the economy tanks. Like so many things in life it’s all about timing.