My letter to TC - ATPL injustice

[Tim]

delta hotel, it sounds to me like youre whining more about the fact that an instructor CAN get an ATPL as opposed to the fact that you cant. you made youre choice, im sure drooling at the mouth for that f/o job. too bad you didn't think a little farther down the road. i instructed for 3 years. i have an atpl -which i got 100% from instructing - and over 1000hrs multi pic. now i fly a BE20 and ill have a good shot of upgrading in short order as a result of all that pic. guess what else i did while instructing? i flew in one of the busiest airports in canada, i got to experience plenty of IMC, i got lots of PIC time and the buck ALWAYS stopped with me. ive had an engine failure, gear failure, complete electrical failure, partial electrical failure and a slew of other minor emergencies. ive been stuck in unforecast t-storms without radar and icing without boots. i didn't have anyone to hold my hand through it or look over at with dopey eyes asking what do i do now. if you cant see the merrits of being in charge then you probably arent ready for the AAs yet.

[trey kule]

Wow..Tim...I gotta say it again...Wow

ive had an engine failure, gear failure, complete electrical failure, partial electrical failure and a slew of other minor emergencies. ive been stuck in unforecast t-storms without radar and icing without boots.

All this experience as an instructor? I am impressed. I have been flying WITH an ATPL for over 30 years and I havent experienced all the things you listed. Icing without boots. flying through, what was it, unforcast T-storm without radar...I certainly hope your decision making skills have improved as a result of all this exceptional experience gained as an instructor. But then looking at all the other experiences you had, maybe you are just plane (pun intended) unlucky.

But you have had those real and unexaggerated experiences,they are exactly the kind of BS experiences that some unscrupulous types will pretend to have just to make a point.

The real question here is the value of PIC time in general. I think the consensus is yes it is important. I think TC will think so to, so little possibility of changing downwards. Maybe as the 250 wonders pop up in the CADORS a few times we will have it go the other way.

I agree 100% with all the comments regarding a sense of entitlement and wanting to change the rules.. Seems to me, there were threads on this subject a few years back..Seems maybe some of the new pilots should have given some thoughts to the words of wisdom offered by some of the long in the tooth, first officer mentors.

[iflyforpie]

Wow..Tim...I gotta say it again...Wow

ive had an engine failure, gear failure, complete electrical failure, partial electrical failure and a slew of other minor emergencies. ive been stuck in unforecast t-storms without radar and icing without boots.

All this experience as an instructor? I am impressed. I have been flying WITH an ATPL for over 30 years and I havent experienced all the things you listed. Icing without boots. flying through, what was it, unforcast T-storm without radar...I certainly hope your decision making skills have improved as a result of all this exceptional experience gained as an instructor. But then looking at all the other experiences you had, maybe you are just plane (pun intended) unlucky..

Actually that sounds about right IMHO. When I was getting my CPL and then instructing at the same school, pretty much all of the above events happened to one instructor (some when I was in the plane) during my two years there. This was including my first time in actual IMC where a T-storm did rapidly develop (we did have wx radar though, prop heat only) and a line of IFR traffic into the airport that were about to cancel tied up the airspace for the longest .8 I ever logged.

[oldncold]

to relate a little story that happened a few yrs ago to the orginal poster.

its 2am in upper frozen boot nowhere. after doing an approach to near mins ya shut down the medics say they will only be about 40 min

well murphy law is in play 21/2 hrs later with a very urgent complicated pregnacy they are still needing another hour before airborne . during this time light freezing drizzle has coated the tail n wings you accepted the trip knowing that if ya were delyaed beyond 2hrs on the ground it was a possibility 30% and every one was a part of the process medics /f/o etc they needed to get the lady to a better treatment facility.


so here ya are urgent prego lady and an slightly iced up aircraft in the middle of the night . what do ya do ? well ysure don't want to be stranded there .and ya can't takoff with an iced up aircraft.

this is where pic experience came in from back i n the bush days of flyin floats . it was sept and ice frost had covered the beaver so what do ya do well the ole guy( boss) took pails of water out of the lake and showed me that it is slightly warmer thant the outside temp. started doucing the tail n wings with lake water.

that night I remembered that nugget of information and instructed the ambulance driver on the reserve to bring as many pails of hot/warm water as they could find > Climbing up in the roof of the ambulance I (very slippery I might add) got rid of the ice and then sprayed de ice fluid out of our piss pack on the tail to help with keeping it clear until airborne. same for the the rest of the a/c , we were delayed but it was very safe , got the job done, and led by example of how to thinK out side the box when things don't go according to plan I didn't not ask my fo to climb on the roof . it was also a good example of a total team effort to resolve a challenging set of circumstances. but the buck stopped in the left seat.

You don't get that with out pic time or history of experiences get the time the f/o on that trip is a now a very good captain with a sound understanding of all of the a forementioned. sorry man get the time .

[double-j]

Well I do understand your frustration per say Deltahotel, TC does not mandate the quality of the PIC, only the quantity. So in theory you could rent a simple single engine ac, wait until a clear windless morning and burn off the time flying to non demanding, close airports. That would meet the requirements. Its true.

But I would caution anyone in this situation not go follow this road.

You are only cheating yourself later on.

We all owe it to ourselves as professionals (and our passengers), to gain the most quality experience from each hour logged. Push yourself. The lessons learned will comeback tenfold over the course of your career.

Some of the best, command experience I have had was back on the cessna 207 operating out of YMM. Why? because it was VFR, I was lowtime and there were many hazards out there for a performance-limited airplane. And lets face it, I was mission oriented. We all are.

One of the biggest lessons I have learned so far by being in the left seat is that we as pilots put the most operational pressure on ourselves. Why? because we are goal oriented. We are paid to complete the mission and we sometimes feel that we have failed or are "less of a pilot" by delaying or canceling our flights. Some of my most proudest moments stem from decisions where I cancelled a flight, and believe you me, I felt awful at myself at the time, and it lasted a while.

That self discovery you will not find by being second in command. You just gotta be there to see what you will do.


jj

[2R]

Veni Vidi Vomiti

[DeltaHotel]

OldandCold : Another heroic story. Good for you.

I've done my fair share of medevacs and float flying, I too think this is where I learnt a lot of invaluable lessons ...

I fail to see your point as you mention that you learned the ''lake water for deice'' trick (Id be careful with that one BTW :S ) while flying with an old time capt (ur boss) ... ?! This is exactly what Im saying. You gain enormous amount of experience flying right seat in the bush or on a sked. And my rant was about TC not acknowledging that experience!

Will we have to break out the rulers !? Lots of hotshot, defensive Captains here bragging about how bad they've seen it.
Im not pretending to have seen it all, I still have a lot to learn. All Im saying is TC rules for ATPL are not well calibrated.

[xsbank]

I did the night requirements for my ATPL by renting a 172 and flying every good night until it was done. Got to know the FSS guys in Quesnel and Prince George quite well.

There is a license and there is experience and they don't necessarily correlate. You need the license to go further but a good chief pilot will determine whether you have got the experience to go further.

Knock off the license then get on with your career.

[trey kule]

All Im saying is TC rules for ATPL are not well calibrated.

I agree 100%. They darn well need to increase the required PIC time to 1000 hrs. That way there will be more assurance that pilots have gotten the necessary experience. Might be good to include 500 hrs of PIC X-country time as well, amd 250 PIC multi engine.

Just jerking your chain...or am I.?.....early morning and too much coffee

[Liquid Charlie]

As I eluded to a couple of pages ago - the trend will be towards more experience, tougher examinations and testing to a level that will eliminate places like club schools from the commercial/ATP training (unless they change) - The Americans are pushing for a University type structure to qualify for ATP and part 121 employment. This won't happen over night but I would say the next generation of pilots might see some of it as reality.

Academia will be alive and well in aviation -- mmmm -- seems to me we had a thread about that a short time ago -- PhD indeed -- I'm glad me and the ars of my pants will have faded into the sunset by then

[Lurch]

I'l go back and read everybodies replies in a minute but as per the original post



Lurch

[Nark]

Will we have to break out the rulers !? Lots of hotshot, defensive Captains here bragging about how bad they've seen it.
Im not pretending to have seen it all, I still have a lot to learn. All Im saying is TC rules for ATPL are not well calibrated.

Well it still seems after several of us who have held PIC jobs are telling you, it should be increased not decreased to suit you, you still don't get it.

Not one person in this thread who has been el capitan concurred with what you'd like to see. If you fly anything like you come across on here, you need a lot more than the 500 hours or more we're suggesting.

[Hawkerflyer]

Sorry bud, everyone has to earn the ATPL. I couldn't agree more with some folks here....the mins are to low to begin with.

[Hedley]

The requirements for ATPL do vary from place to place, despite ICAO.

I know Europe is bananas about written exams for the ATPL. I remember hearing something about 15 (wtf?!) written exams you had to write there, and you needed double Phd's in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering to pass them, which I think is stupid.

Performance on a written exam and performance in the cockpit has a poor correlation, in my decades of experience. A lot of great pilots are terrible at written exams, and I know guys that can ace written tests that I wouldn't let push my lawn mower.

As far as the PIC requirements for the ATPL go ... personally, I think a thousand hours PIC would be a good start. IMHO. Heck, I think my kid has enough PIC for his ATPL already as the rules stand right now, and he hasn't even gotten his PPL yet

[hairdo]

OldandCold : Another heroic story. Good for you.

I've done my fair share of medevacs and float flying, I too think this is where I learnt a lot of invaluable lessons ...

I fail to see your point as you mention that you learned the ''lake water for deice'' trick (Id be careful with that one BTW :S ) while flying with an old time capt (ur boss) ... ?! This is exactly what Im saying. You gain enormous amount of experience flying right seat in the bush or on a sked. And my rant was about TC not acknowledging that experience!

Will we have to break out the rulers !? Lots of hotshot, defensive Captains here bragging about how bad they've seen it.
Im not pretending to have seen it all, I still have a lot to learn. All Im saying is TC rules for ATPL are not well calibrated.

Ok DH, lets compare it to when you first started your training as a pilot. You blast off with your instructor to learn something new (hopefully) about how to fly an aircraft. You learn how to do a circuit, cross-country, etc., all well and good. But if all you've done is dual on the items, you're missing a vital part of your training... responsibility. When you go solo, the decisions are going to be made by you now, and if you screw up, there's no safety net in the form of instructor to help you. It's not a lot different for you as an FO as it was when you were a student with an instructor. You're probably learning lots, but ultimately, you don't have the weight of responsibility on your shoulders. That's what that PIC time is all about. It's not so much about all the experiences you've had and all the wonderful things you've learned, as it is about responsibility.

[DAVE THE RAVE]

By the way most of the posters are going on in here, I wonder how the European FO's ever become captains. Simple, they graduate from a flying program, jump straight into the right seat of a jet A319/320, B737, do a few years of that, and command a few years down the road. How much PIC time do you think they have accumulated, considering when they start some of them have a TT of around 180-200 hours?

They learn by flying the line, being an active member of the crew, being involved in the decision making process and being directly exposed to the operation.

[TA/RA]

By the way most of the posters are going on in here, I wonder how the European FO's ever become captains. Simple, they graduate from a flying program, jump straight into the right seat of a jet A319/320, B737, do a few years of that, and command a few years down the road. How much PIC time do you think they have accumulated, considering when they start some of them have a TT of around 180-200 hours?

They learn by flying the line, being an active member of the crew, being involved in the decision making process and being directly exposed to the operation.

VERY GOOD POINT! While I respect the role of the "Captains" I also agree with the statement that many captains believe that everyone else should have it worse than they did. God forbid someone should get lucky and earn the seat in a less painstaking manner than the person before them. Everything in this business has to be earned but at the same time some "el captains" need to get off their high horse and remember that they were human before they were self proclaimed gods!

In my humble opinion the mark of a good captain is when their, FOs become well adjusted captains in a timely fashion because they have passed on their knowledge in an effort to help their peer progress, while remembering where they came from. All too often I have witnessed captains who insist on belittling FOs for no reason other than to make themselves feel even more mighty. These individuals are few and far between but they do exist.

Thank you to all the Captains out there who are true leaders who command respect instead of demanding respect.

[oldncold]

delta hotel thx but the final word is this in all situations there are several options 1/the easiest is to go all the time / 2 the hardest is to say no all the time/ 3 is to have enough experience to balance all of those factors and to get the job done safely . that is what pic is for, not to berate anyone but to have those realize who feel they should have it now.

there is a right of passage // kind of like losing one's virginity. that if I may use the example as an analogy is the commercial getting the atpl is having enough experiences and pic to know ones way around the the opposite sex with out having to get out the manual every time. think of it this way you would want your wing man every friday nght at the local club giving play by play on how to do it would ya .. that is what pic is for .take care fly safe and enjoy the right of passage soon enough with hard work you will have to think about which hour goal post to achieve

[scopiton]

interesting posts -
Pic time is gold and ATPL requirements are too low, everybody is right about that.
surprisingly, I know a 14000 pilot with only 1600Pic - logged doing instruction- who just "graduated" as a b767 captain.
so here is the question, which is very serious (no troll or whatever) :
what do you do with all your pic time once at the bottom of a seniority list in a major company ?

[lionheart27]

I think what was mentioned is the fact that when you alone make the decisions and learn from them you become the more well rounded pilot with better experience in the end. You will no doubt learn a lot from a crusty old Captain but he has had some experiences that you haven't. These are the kinds of decisions a PIC has to make. TC has had some experience in figuring out what at least a minimum amount of time has to be for these qualities to develop.

[costermonger]

I started working towards my ATPL req's while still time building for the CPL. Looked at what was required, what was easy to get/hard to get depending on the job you take, and went to it. Seems to have worked.

Never for a moment considered the 'control of my career' anywhere other than in my own lap.

But hey, what do I know? I've got a lot of instructing hours in the logbook. God only knows if I've got any 'real world' decision making ability.

[bush_rat]

interesting posts -
so here is the question, which is very serious (no troll or whatever) :
what do you do with all your pic time once at the bottom of a seniority list in a major company ?

Thats the simplest question yet on this forum - YOU WAIT YOUR TURN . Alternatively you quit you job, find a new one at a company which has no collective agreement and hires direct entree Captains. Be happy you've made the Majors and enjoy your career.

Cheers

[cdnpilot77]

hires direct entree Captains

I agree 100% with everything else you said, but come on really?

[iflyforpie]

hires direct entree Captains

[Never Mind]

I have both an instructing background and 705 experience. During my instructing days I was able to accumulate almost 1000 hours of PIC time on single engine Cessna's.

Yes, it's true that while gaining that PIC time allowed me to make that final decision I have to admit that in the end, and after a certain while, the benefit was limited.

Having worked as an F/O in a 705 operation I've been exposed to many other variables such as dealing with unruly passengers, using SOPs in a 2 crew environment, working in inclement weather, having a flight attendant etc.

Being exposed to these things can make someone more confident. Confidence, I find, greatly enhances individual performance. Confidence will allow you to make that final decision if put in that position.

I knew what the requirements were so I played by the rules. I really wanted PIC time so I went ahead and got it, and now happy it's in my logbook. However, at the end of the day having worked in a 705 operation has taught me much more and given me extra confidence.

Never Mind