Where should I apply to start working ramp?

[Brown Bear]

Brown Bear:
it has been pointed out to me, and I must admit, saying all old-timers had jobs handed to them in their day is sweeping and unfair. That aside, the same problem exists. If you were treated SO horribly back in your day in your first flying job, how is that so different from low timers working the ramp today?? Sure, you were flying an airplane. But they treated you like crap right? What excatly is the difference? As has been said, some companies really dangle the carrot and make false promises they don;t intend to keep to rampies. But many companies have established programs for low timers and do treat them fairly and a number on a list.
It would seem that taking that crappy bend-over flying job back in the day is no different than working the ramp and being treated fairly to boot.

After a year of flying the Doug, we had 1000 hours of DC3 time, and could move into the left seat. Where will you be after a year driving a fork lift around a ramp? 250 hours, and still looking for that first flying job? At any rate, you do whatever you want. You want to work a ramp for a year or more? Have at 'er.

I did my ramp time while doing a degree and working on my licenses at the same time. Just as I finished my degree I had 4 years of ramp under my belt and slid nicely into a right seat turbine job... how is this a bad choice at 21 I was flying a multi-turbine with a degree thanks to a great company to work for on the ramp where I had lots of fun... oh and they didn't pay crap on the ramp either so before you start bashing ramp jobs maybe you should see what people are actually doing out there

So, you worked on a ramp for four years WHILE WORKING ON YOUR LICENCES......so, you weren't a qualified "pilot" anyway. Pretty different "kettle of fish" to a qualified pilot working the ramp, wouldn't you say?
BTW, our right seat jobs weren't "miserable". We we not treated like "crap"....it was the way the job was. Hold the skipper's hand for a year or so. Get 1000-1500 hours right seat...move to the left.
I worked as a flight instructor to finance my education. Same thing you did....only, in reverse.

[2.5milefinal]

Unless you are absolutely positive you will get flying within 2 or 3 months of starting a job.
DON'T TAKE THE JOB. Working the ramp/dock for months and years before you get flying is just wrong.
...someone stop the insanity.

edit: absolutely is a strong word but what did you go to school for? ...so you could maybe fly ?

[aV1aTOr]

absolutely is a strong word but what did you go to school for? ...so you could maybe fly ?

I'm sure employers get tired of this line. "I am a PILOT! Not a laborer!" That is true. You can fly an airplane. Congratulations. So can 10 000 other 20 year olds with 250 hours. Thank the flight schools and colleges preaching the 'pilot shortage and huge salaries' sermon for the last 15 years. Some guys need to take the gold off their shoulders before they can actually earn it. Unless you are going to start your own company and create thousands of new entry level flying jobs in Canada and swing the demand for pilots the other way, digging in your feet on the sidelines because you are a PILOT ( ) will only delay your career.
Sure the fundamentals of working the ramp for a few months to transition to the right seat may be wrong, but there is a huge difference between 'fundamentally right' and reality. I hate to burst your bubble.

[2.5milefinal]

Oh I have no problem with guys working the ramp/dock for a "few months" but the 1 and 2 year thing that I think is wrong.
You aint bursting any bubbles of mine by the way.

[Brown Bear]

absolutely is a strong word but what did you go to school for? ...so you could maybe fly ?

I'm sure employers get tired of this line. "I am a PILOT! Not a laborer!" That is true. You can fly an airplane. Congratulations. So can 10 000 other 20 year olds with 250 hours. Thank the flight schools and colleges preaching the 'pilot shortage and huge salaries' sermon for the last 15 years. Some guys need to take the gold off their shoulders before they can actually earn it. Unless you are going to start your own company and create thousands of new entry level flying jobs in Canada and swing the demand for pilots the other way, digging in your feet on the sidelines because you are a PILOT ( ) will only delay your career.
Sure the fundamentals of working the ramp for a few months to transition to the right seat may be wrong, but there is a huge difference between 'fundamentally right' and reality. I hate to burst your bubble.

Whatever floats your boat. Name one company who will "use" you as cheap labour for just a "few months" when pilots are stupid enough to chase the "carrot" for upwards of two years. After two years on the ramp, you'll have 250 hours..and you will have forgotten how to fly. Of course, you could always "borrow" another 10K of your daddy's money, and buy a job at a company like Wasaya? I hate to burst your bubble.

[ywgflyboy]

The best thing anyone can do is START THE RAMP BEFORE. By the time you get all your training completed, a year will have past and you are top of the line for a flying spot.

Of course, that is dependent on the company hiring people without all of their ratings completed. Where I am, on a waitlist of about 30, only half have all of their ratings completed.

[Big Pistons Forever]

absolutely is a strong word but what did you go to school for? ...so you could maybe fly ?

I'm sure employers get tired of this line. "I am a PILOT! Not a laborer!" That is true. You can fly an airplane. Congratulations. So can 10 000 other 20 year olds with 250 hours. Thank the flight schools and colleges preaching the 'pilot shortage and huge salaries' sermon for the last 15 years. Some guys need to take the gold off their shoulders before they can actually earn it. Unless you are going to start your own company and create thousands of new entry level flying jobs in Canada and swing the demand for pilots the other way, digging in your feet on the sidelines because you are a PILOT ( ) will only delay your career.
Sure the fundamentals of working the ramp for a few months to transition to the right seat may be wrong, but there is a huge difference between 'fundamentally right' and reality. I hate to burst your bubble.

Whatever floats your boat. Name one company who will "use" you as cheap labour for just a "few months" when pilots are stupid enough to chase the "carrot" for upwards of two years. After two years on the ramp, you'll have 250 hours..and you will have forgotten how to fly. Of course, you could always "borrow" another 10K of your daddy's money, and buy a job at a company like Wasaya? I hate to burst your bubble.

Re the highlighted portion. After 2 years on the ramp (or hopefully significantly less time) you will now having a flying job. As a brand new wannabe taking the attitude that you will hold out for a flying job will probably mean that after 2 years you will still have only 250 hrs and no flying job job. It is a pretty big risk to take given the fact that the majority of pilots who are starting their first flying postion come from a ground job as rampie/dispatcher/dockman etc. The industry has changed and no amount of wishing is going to turn back the clock. I tell all my students the best way to find a flying job is to get your foot in the door in any capacity.

[2.5milefinal]

*delete*

[iflyforpie]

Unfortunately, I've also seen people spend two years on the ramp/dock and still have no flying job. The carrot was always moved just beyond their grasp with the usual, yet plausible excuses.

"Sorry, we've had a bad year and can't put any more pilots on the line."

"The insurance company upped their experience requirements this year."

"I know you've been here longer, but Buddy Boy has more hours (or more connections) than you do."

And on and on it goes, reminding me of those websites that promise you free stuff and just wind up navigating you in a circle while screwing you over.

Sometimes, ramp can be a good thing. It gets arrogant or privileged pilots grounded (pun intended) while letting them and more humble pilots learn how aviation works outside of the circuit and practice area. I do know a few pilots who went from ramp on to very successful careers.

What I am saying is, caveat emptor. Ask how long the average wait is and don't put all your eggs in one basket. Make it clear that you are there for a flying job and don't be afraid to jump ship if it looks like they are jerking you around as your ratings expire. Loyalty and hard work is only good if it is repaid in kind.

Most of the pilots who work(ed) at my place of business got on with less than 500TT (including yours truly). Ramp duties always, but never dedicated ground positions...

[Brown Bear]

Unfortunately, I've also seen people spend two years on the ramp/dock and still have no flying job. The carrot was always moved just beyond their grasp with the usual, yet plausible excuses.

"Sorry, we've had a bad year and can't put any more pilots on the line."

"The insurance company upped their experience requirements this year."

"I know you've been here longer, but Buddy Boy has more hours (or more connections) than you do."

And on and on it goes, reminding me of those websites that promise you free stuff and just wind up navigating you in a circle while screwing you over.

Sometimes, ramp can be a good thing. It gets arrogant or privileged pilots grounded (pun intended) while letting them and more humble pilots learn how aviation works outside of the circuit and practice area. I do know a few pilots who went from ramp on to very successful careers.

What I am saying is, caveat emptor. Ask how long the average wait is and don't put all your eggs in one basket. Make it clear that you are there for a flying job and don't be afraid to jump ship if it looks like they are jerking you around as your ratings expire. Loyalty and hard work is only good if it is repaid in kind.

Most of the pilots who work(ed) at my place of business got on with less than 500TT (including yours truly). Ramp duties always, but never dedicated ground positions...

Agree with your entire post...except...."...pilots learn how aviation works outside the practice area....." You might however, learn how a forklift works....?

[aV1aTOr]

After two years on the ramp, you'll have 250 hours..and you will have forgotten how to fly.

Sorry, but anyone who waits on a low time list for that long and does no preparation (not flying around in a 172 - totally useless. Try time in a king air or metro sim) deserves to wash out. In my experience, the transition from flying a Seneca to a 1900 was such a leap that recent time in the Seneca made 0 difference in whether or not I could handle the 1900. It was TOTALLY dependent on my understanding of SOPs and preparation for the speed of the airplane (again, king air sim was invaluable). We have had plenty of ex-flight instructors wash out in training where I work.... guaranteed they had not 'forgotten how to fly.'
My point is simply that coming 'fresh' off a 172 or Dutchess with 250 hours to fly a multi-turbine is worth zilch. In this regard, the whole argument about 'forgetting how to fly' holds no water with me.

[scopiton]

...

[Brown Bear]

After two years on the ramp, you'll have 250 hours..and you will have forgotten how to fly.

Sorry, but anyone who waits on a low time list for that long and does no preparation (not flying around in a 172 - totally useless. Try time in a king air or metro sim) deserves to wash out. In my experience, the transition from flying a Seneca to a 1900 was such a leap that recent time in the Seneca made 0 difference in whether or not I could handle the 1900. It was TOTALLY dependent on my understanding of SOPs and preparation for the speed of the airplane (again, king air sim was invaluable). We have had plenty of ex-flight instructors wash out in training where I work.... guaranteed they had not 'forgotten how to fly.'
My point is simply that coming 'fresh' off a 172 or Dutchess with 250 hours to fly a multi-turbine is worth zilch. In this regard, the whole argument about 'forgetting how to fly' holds no water with me.

A light twin is an airplane. A 1900 is an airplane. This may surprise you to know....a 1900 is not exactly rocket science. In your case, I'd be surprised if you can hold your water.

[chinglish]

two years on the ramp or not I can see a lot of people having a hard time transitioning from a 172 to a 1900 with just 250 hours. I understand that flying is still just flying but when you only have 250 hours you're not really involved with the decision making up front. You're just riding "shotgun" with the captain.

[Brown Bear]

Any company who would put a 250 hour pilot into a 1900, is doing a disservice to their passengers. Please supply the name of the company you use as an example. Some of our family members would like to take alternate means of transportation.

[fly-drink-chicks-music]

Any company who would put a 250 hour pilot into a 1900, is doing a disservice to their passengers. Please supply the name of the company you use as an example. Some of our family members would like to take alternate means of transportation.

You realize in Europe they put them in Airbuses? In the 80's college kids were direct hire to Air Canada. Solid training, understanding of SOPS and the aircraft with some good supervision sets them in the right direction no?

[Brown Bear]

Any company who would put a 250 hour pilot into a 1900, is doing a disservice to their passengers. Please supply the name of the company you use as an example. Some of our family members would like to take alternate means of transportation.

You realize in Europe they put them in Airbuses? In the 80's college kids were direct hire to Air Canada. Solid training, understanding of SOPS and the aircraft with some good supervision sets them in the right direction no?

Yes they do. It's a very controlled environment. Very automated. Big difference between flying an airbus with auto everything, than shoehorning a Beech 1900 into Upper Arm Pit North Western Ontario with Captain "Giver" at the wheel. A huge difference in the training and experience level in the left seat as well. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying, no members of my family will be on board. I'm extremely familiar with the way of the north....no thanks. Give the right seater a season or two on, at least a Caravan.

[fish4life]

Any company who would put a 250 hour pilot into a 1900, is doing a disservice to their passengers. Please supply the name of the company you use as an example. Some of our family members would like to take alternate means of transportation.

You realize in Europe they put them in Airbuses? In the 80's college kids were direct hire to Air Canada. Solid training, understanding of SOPS and the aircraft with some good supervision sets them in the right direction no?

Yes they do. It's a very controlled environment. Very automated. Big difference between flying an airbus with auto everything, than shoehorning a Beech 1900 into Upper Arm Pit North Western Ontario with Captain "Giver" at the wheel. A huge difference in the training and experience level in the left seat as well. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying, no members of my family will be on board. I'm extremely familiar with the way of the north....no thanks. Give the right seater a season or two on, at least a Caravan.

I'll have to respectfully disagree, putting a 250hr pilot in the right seat is a great way to ensure that when they go left seat they are extremely comfortable with the aircraft and the way it flies. I'd much rather have 2000 hrs right seat on type then go left seat than 1800hrs left seat on a single then 200 hr right seat on something a lot more complicated and moving seats then into something your still not all that comfortable with.

[chinglish]

Any company who would put a 250 hour pilot into a 1900, is doing a disservice to their passengers. Please supply the name of the company you use as an example. Some of our family members would like to take alternate means of transportation.

I'm pretty sure the company (CMA) that we're talking about does this. I personally don't have a problem with a 250 hour cojo sitting in the right seat. Flying a 1900 isn't rocket science but at 250 hours you probably don't really have a lot of input into what is going on.

[modi13]

So Brown Bear, if I'm understanding you correctly, a 1900 flies like any other plane and low timers shouldn't have difficulty learning how to fly them, but it's not safe to put a low timer in one?

[aV1aTOr]

Agreed. There seems to be some conflicting opinion from you Brown Bear. As I am well aware, flying a 1900 is not open heart surgery. It`s downright boring most days.
And you would like to warn loved ones about 250 guys in the right seat?? It's just another airplane you know. Someone told me that recently. And heaven forbid you fly anywhere else in the world as a passenger.
As has been stated here.... would you prefer captain A with 2500 hours in a Dutchess and 200 hours in multi turbine IFR, or the ex-250 hour wonder with 2800 hours in the multi turbine IFR machine? I'll tell you my employers opinion - it's a no-brainer.

[yzfer]

So i just finished reading this thread viewtopic.php?f=49&t=67422 and figured I could do my part and maybe help turn this thread around.

I was hired on at one of the companies original stated on the first page of this post, and have to say I am overall pleased with my working conditions. Yes, someday im not too pleased because I do deal with those who have the attitude that they were treated like crap as a 200hr wonder so they can now treat others like that, but for the most part everyone is really friendly and helpful. Hard work is noticed and rewarded, ive already completed ground school for one of the aircraft, just waiting for flight training to start now. Moral i have learned is good opportunities are out there if you're willing to look and introduce yourself to the right people.

[airborn0710]

Update!! Thanks to all those who gave positive encouragement and sound advice, even though the majority of the "help" wasn't very helpful haha. I got on with my number one choice of the places listed here, and could not be happier. A conservative wait time for me from today would be 6-8 months. Will it be worth it?

Well tell me how else someone with 230 hours and a MIFR will fly scheduled passenger flights on a twin turbine pressurized aircraft for a fair pay, in a safe operation that has been around for over 50 years? Not to mention the option to be based out of a big city, for whoever likes that. Add on lots of movement, advancement within the company after a year or two and about 600- 800 hours of time in the book per year.

I bet the list is very short... I can think of two places in all of Canada. They both require you to begin at the bottom and wait for your number to come up

[D-Iced]

***Edit: Read your last post, good for you! Carry on. . .

Disclaimer: I scrolled through this thread and skipped all the 'whiny bones to pick' bits. If what I add was mentioned already, my apologies.

To the OP:
- If you truly have accepted that a flying position must begin by accepting a 'non-flying' position of an indefinite duration, you sir are ahead of the game. It is true, pilots with no professional skills get flying jobs off the hop sometimes, but it isn't without much luck and/or a good contact. Hardly something to count on.
- Know deep down that you want to fly and will not quit. It can be very difficult to carry on sometimes (for many reasons, different for each of us that have traveled the path).
- Travel to the town(s) known to have good and reputable operators that operate the equipment you want to start on (and that offer ground-based-upgrade positions). There is plenty of advice on that (in fact, the first page of this thread listed the gamut). When you feel like its the kind of place you can live with, get a job and set up shop. Canvas your preferred future aviation employer(s) until they sort you out with a job. It will happen (unless they dont like you for whatever reason, which I would think would be obvious).

As for the whole bit about starting from a non-flying position: Think of it as your apprenticeship.
If its dispatch, you will gain immense and valuable insight into flight ops, including:
- pilot rostering (will be one of your deciding factors concerning where you eventually want to work in this industry)
- duty rules/restrictions
- frontline customer relations
- operational costs
The list goes on . . .

If its ramp/dock:
- How to load an aircraft. Quite handy to see how many boxes of chips fit in a Twin Otter or Caravan or whatever, or how to move (by hand) a 3000 pound generator into an aircraft using secret Jedi tricks and barrel ramps.
- How to drive a forklift. Wait, thats not that useful to a flying career
- For those special days, how to conduct daily flight ops! You will tag a long for some quality flying and see what it is you are there for. Keeps the dream alive
Again, the list goes on . . .

These are only my opinions. The program has worked for myself and countless others. Be dedicated, you'll get the goods!

Good luck! PM if you like.

[CPLMike89]

Ramp is a gamble I worked on the ramp/dock for two companies one while completing my training then moved away to work at a 705 operation. The carrot always seemed to get further away and at the end of the season I left. Best decision I ever made and Ive been flying ever since.

Mike W