Thank you AirCanada

[mattedfred]

The Pilots that do the Association's work (...not all of them...) have an axe to grind.

some of these folks worked on the global solutions project

[fish4life]

Don't know if its true but I heard that all along AC was charging for the jumpseats but ACPA was picking up the tab for anyone that was jumpseating until it finally started to cost too much. Once again if someone knows the truth please let me know.

As for people going around and not wanting to let others jumpseat on their flights can't we all get along? The US aviation industry is pretty bad but at least flight crews for the most part down there get along really well and no one has to pay for jumpseating and crews don't have a problem with letting crews from other airlines commute on their flights. (once again just what I've heard from friends flying down there)

[flyinhigh]

Just to clarify for you guys, jazz is paying full price for the 57 crews to fly around.

It was sent out as well that once at training we could not use the pass's as it would be for outside work which is against policy.

As for if we loose them, yes you will see alot of W&B issues on r a/c from certain individuals,(let's face it, it will happen).

As for flying around bumping a jazz pilot on r a/c. That'll piss alot of people off. Only way is jazz emp. First priority, ac a/c, ac first priority

[countryhick]

Further to that, passes were NEVER used for anything related to TC flying, to training or otherwise.

[bcflyer]

Further to that, passes were NEVER used for anything related to TC flying, to training or otherwise.

Thats quite the statement.. You checked every pilot and F/A's personal travel file? You can absolutely say that nobody commuted to 757 training on their passes? No F/A's used their passes to commute to 757 training on their passes? You must have alot of pull to get access to all those records...

[aviator2010]

Thats quite the statement.. You checked every pilot and F/A's personal travel file? You can absolutely say that nobody commuted to 757 training on their passes? No F/A's used their passes to commute to 757 training on their passes? You must have alot of pull to get access to all those records...

oh junior one day when you work for the big boys you'll understand. JAZZ and everyother major airline in canada does pay for training

[bcflyer]

I'm afraid its you that doesn't understand. I do work for one of the big boys and know full well that they pay for their own training. My comments were in relation to someone else who said nobody used their passes to do training for TC flying.

[Troubleshot]

BC,

don't waste your breath on "aviator2010". This clown has no clue what he/she is talking about, it pipes in on subjects it knows nothing about all the time, makes shit up, etc...

[Localizer]

Thats quite the statement.. You checked every pilot and F/A's personal travel file? You can absolutely say that nobody commuted to 757 training on their passes? No F/A's used their passes to commute to 757 training on their passes? You must have alot of pull to get access to all those records...

I think the point he's trying to make is that Jazz purchases seats to send people for training, and the FA's have a training facility in YYZ.

Now the people that commute to and from work via passes .. I guess you'll have to call Industry Travel in regards to that. Its really pointless anyways .. the passes are a privilege/benefit given to Jazz employee's through the CPA, so I don't think it matters if you're working on behalf of TC or AC, there still Jazz employee's.

I find it ridiculous that there is so much tension about the passes. I've never heard anyone have any trouble getting to or from work. (AC or Jazz) Sure there are the odd days that seats are limited, those you plan for. So instead of trying to get your union to waste bargaining capital to revoke Jazz passes, maybe you should lobby them to bargain for better commuting language. The Jazz CA has a 2 flight rule .. you try 2 flights that you have a reasonable expectation of getting on, and if it doesn't work out ... no harm, no foul. I think the new CA say's they'll even pos space you if they need you bad enough.

Too much tension on the forums as of late .. maybe everyone needs a time out.

[teacher]

Commuting for training, work or vacation what does it matter. Now if you mean to the "training centre" I can guarantee that it was paid for by Jazz and not provided to Jazz by AC.

[hypoxic]

the passes are a privilege/benefit given to Jazz employee's through the CPA, so I don't think it matters if you're working on behalf of TC or AC, there still Jazz employee's.

Actually it does matter! You can't have it both ways. Kinda like the scope grievance that ACPA has filed regarding the 57's. Jazz guys are saying the TC flying is outside of the AC CPA therefore the grievance is unsubstantiated. However Jazz is still doing that flying and ACPA's scope limits the flying that Jazz can do. The point that was trying to be made was for an example: YHZ commuter, YYZ based flying for TC, are they using passes to get to YYZ? Or is Jazz paying AC to get the commuting pilot to YYZ? Should all Jazz employees flying for TC have their passes rescinded because the aren't doing AC CPA flying?

BTW this is not strictly a pilot move to have Jazz's pass priority reduced. All of the employee groups at AC have voiced their displeasure at the current policy. Also Jazz employees can look at the AC pass/travel policy section 3.19 and see that it states among others the boarding priority is subject to change!

[countryhick]

You can absolutely say that nobody commuted to 757 training on their passes
RELATED to TC flying. Commuting is not related to TC flying. Any and all travel required for the TC contract is full fare.


ACPA's scope limits the flying that Jazz can do.
Really, are we still debating this.......

[whipline]

Not that I really care, but I think what BCFlyer might be trying to say is..groundschool is booked for 10 am in Toronto. Jazz paid for a ticket on Sunday night. Employee doesn't want leave his/her base (not yyz) to go Sunday night and uses a pass monday morning. Pilots doing sim in wherever, finish up and don't want to wait a day for a flight home, uses a pass to come home. You get the point.

[hypoxic]

Commuting is not related to TC flying.

I must have heard wrong! I was told there was at least one Jazz pilot living in YHZ but YYZ based that will be flying for TC! Will he be using AC passes to get to YYZ to do flying for TC? I thought all TC flying was going to be based in YYZ? Does Jazz pay AC to get this pilot from YHZ to YYZ to start his pairing?

Will Jazz extend a reciprocal agreement for AC employees to have pass travel on TC flights?

[teacher]

Would you restrict the jump seat for WJ or Porter commuters? So why the cabin for commuting to do the TC contract. As for scope I can't believe we're debating this again. Scope only covers regional flying for mainline.

[Localizer]

Hypoxic,

I understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to point out to you is that all Jazz employee's get this benefit through the CPA. So if you work for Jazz then you're entitled to the passes. It doesn't matter what your position is or what file (TC or AC) your working for .. your entitled to the passes under the CPA for being a Jazz employee.

It may say the priority is subject to change in the pass travel booklet .. but we've been given assurances (Jazz and AC management) that there will be no changes for the duration of the CPA. (2020)

Jazz operates 125 aircraft under the CPA .. I don't understand why you don't think we should be entitled to a minor benefit such as the passes. I say minor because they now cost a small fortune to use since the service charges came back.

Do you find issues arise when you try to commute to work? Where do you commute from?

[hypoxic]

Would you restrict the jump seat for WJ or Porter commuters? So why the cabin for commuting to do the TC contract. As for scope I can't believe we're debating this again. Scope only covers regional flying for mainline.

No not at all! Those pilots don't have an equal boarding priority to AC employees.

Jazz taking on the TC flying is a game changer! When these agreements (scope/arbitration/pass travel) were put in place Jazz solely did AC work with the odd charter. We are now trying to figure out the intent of these agreements. Trust me, no AC employee is happy that competing company employees have the same boarding priority. TC directly competes with AC vacations. And maybe in the future Jazz will provide crews for another carrier.
I don't have the "full" Jazz CPA but if it does state that Jazz is entitled to C2 passes then the idea is to get all AC employees C2A passes, or something similar. Now this is not strictly a Jazz issue. With the potential of a new CPA with SkyReg.(which I don't agree with btw) AC employees want to make sure that those employees don't have the same C2 priority. I think what may happen is a standard policy for all CPA providers. AC is really trying to get employees engaged and empowered. This is a no cost benefit that help to make that happen.

btw I don't commute but I do notice some Jazz pilots ahead of me on the 401. I'm trying to get that changed that too!

[teacher]

I guess I can see why you guys would think that way, I just think it's starting to get petty and the more it does the worse we all look. All this tit for tat and changing of agreements talk only pisses people off more and does nothing to foster any sense of co-operation.

[Localizer]

I guess I can see why you guys would think that way, I just think it's starting to get petty and the more it does the worse we all look. All this tit for tat and changing of agreements talk only pisses people off more and does nothing to foster any sense of co-operation.

+1 .. Petty is a good word to use .. We focus our anger and frustrations in the wrong direction. Pilots should be more then willing to help pilots .. I know the mainline/regional past, lets leave it right there and look to a brighter more cohesive future. We should all be on the same side fighting managements that are bred/trained to drive OUR industry into the ground.

Has anyone seen the movie "Finding Nemo" .. i'm sure if you have kids then you've seen this movie. I think we look like the flock of Seagulls that are perched on the rocks screaming "mine! mine! mine!" .. lol

For those that haven't seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXRgpum7OUo

[hypoxic]

What is petty now many not be so in the future. We've all learned that the hard way. I agree that we all need to cooperate to make this profession better. A good start is http://www.collegeofpilots.ca. It may seem petty but I don't think Jazz ALPA has contributed any $$ to help get this going. Most other pilot groups have!

[Localizer]

What is petty now many not be so in the future. We've all learned that the hard way. I agree that we all need to cooperate to make this profession better. A good start is http://www.collegeofpilots.ca. It may seem petty but I don't think Jazz ALPA has contributed any $$ to help get this going. Most other pilot groups have!

This is true, JAPLA hasn't contributed as of yet. They have put that portfolio in the hands of ALPA Canada. I think every ALPA pilot should send an email to our ALPA Canada reps and give them your opinion on the College of Pilots. Considering one of the ALPA Canada reps appears to be on the board of the College I think its only a matter of time. Don't you?

I think ALPA just wants to do there due-diligence before dedicating members hard earned money.

[mattedfred]

Point 1:

Can we all agree that Travel Benefits are not a contractual right?

Can we all agree that Travel Benefits are not allocated based on who is most deserving?

Can we all agree that Travel Benefits are allocated based on what we negotiate?

Take RD of Porter for instance. Was he traveling on AC using his Travel Benefits because he deserved them or because it was fair for him to receive them? No. He was able to utilize his Travel Benefits because he was able to negotiate them into the sale agreement with AC.

Jazz employees do not receive C2 priority because they are a contractual right or because we deserve them or because it is the fair way of doing things. Jazz employees receive C2 priority because Jazz was able to negotiate this benefit during CPA negotiations.

Point 2:

Perhaps some of need to review the Travel Benefits Policy Statement on the Employee Travel Website. Travel Benefits must only be used for personal/leisure travel and not for business purposes. I can see how this may be open to interpretation but perhaps some of us should really think about whether they consider commuting to work for AC as personal/leisure travel?

The bottom line is that Jazz continues to benefit from AC Travel Benefits with C2 priority and can therefore use them according to the Travel Benefits Policy Statement. If a Jazz pilot can use them to commute to work for a CPA pairing then they can use them to commute to work for a TC pairing. Otherwise, nobody should be using them to commute to work for anyone.

The fact that an AC employee disagrees with the fact that Jazz employees have C2 priority is an issue that they should take up with those AC employees that negotiated the recently renewed CPA with Jazz.

The fact that AC employees feel that the TC flying that Jazz is doing is competing with AC is an issue that they should take up with their managers as AC has not reduced the covered aircraft as a result and has not requested that Jazz cease the TC operation.

I understand that you may not like what is happening but these are the facts.

[Kevin Russell]

Hi MF,

With respect to RD, AC had revoked his passes because he was using them to generate business and compete against AC (I believe he is suing them so I don't know what the end result is). I know its a bit of a grey area but if you commute to YYZ to operate aircraft on behalf of TC, then technically you would be using personal passes to work for the competition.

I doubt that Jazz will have their C2 status changed. It is far more likely that the status of AC employees will change to reflect a higher boarding priority.

[hithere]

So that's the way it going to go down. The letter Jazz employees got stating their pass priority will not change until the CPA expires(2020) remains valid but mainline employees will have their pass travel priority upgraded. Lovely. Not good for any Jazz employee that uses mainline to commute. If mainline employees manage to get the service charge waiver extended it will be a complete slam dunk for you guys

[hithere]

It just occured to me- ACPA wanted something in return for letting management use Sky Regional go into YTZ. How ironic would it be if that compensation involved upgrading their travel priority!?