Want To Be a Star?

[Norwegianwood]

What is your benifit from all this Mapleleaf do you need more then $130000 for another 5 years or just have nothing else to do after?

No. This is not about me. It is about reality. Coming face to face with the fact that the change is upon us and the fact that the players are irrlelevant. It is no longer a question of Why? but rather a question of How? How do we adapt, with the minimum adverse impact on those most adversely affected?

Generation screwed!!!!!

How would you say to a reduction in pay so my group could get a nice pay raise. You know since we will have to stay at the bottom for longer. I meen all you want is to stay and do what you love so much, money is not the reason!!

Now you are getting to the cruxt of the matter BP, it is all about you.

[Rockie]

How would you say to a reduction in pay so my group could get a nice pay raise. You know since we will have to stay at the bottom for longer. I meen all you want is to stay and do what you love so much, money is not the reason!!

Jeez what a great idea. Who would ever have thought of changing our pay system to accommodate this change and make it more fair for junior people? You're an absolute genius.

Now how about you and everybody else stop whining about how horribly unfair it is and do something about it?

[bush pilot]

Your right its all about me and the other few thousand guys it affects. Sorry to rain on your parade, I should just let you take your rightfull position at the top of the list and be thankfully for the scraps you leave at the back door for me. Please don't hit me with that rolled up news paper for questioning your logic.

[bush pilot]

The problem is your not thinking enough about how it will affect the junior guys just. That said if this goes through how or what would you suggest we do for the junior guys who will have to stay in present position for who knows how long. You will get what you want what do we get in return?

[Norwegianwood]

The problem is your not thinking enough about how it will affect the junior guys just. That said if this goes through how or what would you suggest we do for the junior guys who will have to stay in present position for who knows how long. You will get what you want what do we get in return?

Wake up buddy it has "gone through" and you and acpa missed the train................... no more to be said, g'night

[Inceptive]

Rockie,

You know that change cannot be implemented until the final ax on this
matter is dropped.. The term "Generational theft" is now being adopted
by many of the younger generation (not just aviation) with the feelings
of being scorned by those who prospered by vacancies at 60, holding on
to what they feel, and many would say, are legally entitled to. This
matter is not only aviation related. Legal consult has taken place, however
until the final, and I repeat final, verdicts are implemented, and I repeat
implemented, no rapid changes in our current system of pay will result.

[bush pilot]

The problem is your not thinking enough about how it will affect the junior guys just. That said if this goes through how or what would you suggest we do for the junior guys who will have to stay in present position for who knows how long. You will get what you want what do we get in return?

Wake up buddy it has "gone through" and you and acpa missed the train................... no more to be said, g'night

Thanks for the wakeup call, now why don't you answer the question posed! how are you going to help the ones who are going to be financially hurt if this goes through? or do you even care?

[A330]

39 years of service now with the benefit from all those that retired before him. Tremendous arrogance and entitlement this fellow profiled in the globe. Move on and enjoy turkey, with your full pension and salary. What a toolbag.

[Defy Gravity]

Personally I am neutral on the issue.

But doesn't it all work out in the wash? I doubt most pilots will fly 'til they die. Some stay a little longer, some a little less.

I wonder how many of the pilots against "Fly Past 60" will have a problem "letting go of the controls" when they reach 60?

If the average age for a new hire is 35, wouldn't it be better for your guy's pension if you can stay longer?..ie more years of service

[Redwine]

What a greedy arrogant dink. Retire and stay with your wife already. Enjoy turkey.

[43S/172E]

Some more reader comments from the Globe and Mail:

4:56 PM on March 12, 2011
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Seems like most people are upset with the age of the gentleman and the possibility of deteriorating skills. Well, in my profession of air traffic control, we have people over the age of 60, who are marginally able to keep up with the volume of traffic now and insist on still working. They also have generous pensions of about $8000 per month, yet they won't retire either.

I think it is very sad that someone who has worked for 30-40 years (or more) has nothing better to do with their time than keep working. There is so much of the world to see, so much to do and their time on earth is coming to a close sooner rather than later. They have better retirement incomes than the vast number of Canadians, yet their lives are so empty that they cannot bring themselves to leave work.

As for me, at 53, I'll have 31 years in - and that is enough!! Only a few more years to go. If I can't live on $8K+ per month, I'll adjust my lifestyle to make it work!!.
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etgbc
6:24 PM on March 12, 2011
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The worst part is the marginal ones don't seem to know it. This argument of flying past 60 has been around for years. My experience has been many that have strived to go past 60 were the very same marginal ones. good thing for good F/O's
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A Humble Man
9:28 PM on March 12, 2011
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Thanks for your honesty, JJ.
Frankly , as a passenger , I would not choose
to have this individual fly me !

I'd rather have a younger less arrogant captain in the
cockpit !
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JohanGK
5:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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I guess you won't be flying WESTJET anytime soon. Their retirement age is 65.
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Retiredandhappy
4:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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As a retired Captain from Air Canada and also knowing Mr. Ennis, oops sorry Captain Ennis (for you Mikey) I offer the following comments:

Why did you not try to change the collective agreement years ago?

I believe that some pilots who wish to work past 60 years have ligitimate reasons to do so, greed and arrogance are not ligitimate. Your comments to the Globe show your arrogance please readers do not think all pilots are of this mannerism. Many of us have retired with a happy face from a great career

I hope you have a sympathetic crew for the remainder of your flights, it could make for a very quiet flightdeck otherwise.

I wonder if Turkish Airlines knows that you have stated you will be working for a less prestigous airline than Air Canada when you arrive on their doorstep. I am sure you mentioned that to your future employer during your interview!

In closing did anyone ever give you a break when you were applying for Air Canada? Mikey think of all the young folks trying to get on with Air Canada. Maybe you could give them a break!! Blue side up
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Langenfeld
3:26 PM on March 12, 2011
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“I’m No. 1, so I go wherever I want,” he says. What a fool, to say such a thing.

Why don't you just stick to the agreement you knew was in place.

You're not setting a good example for your kids, dude.

I thought entitlement of this sort only happened in public service and Third World countries.
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whatchut
12:44 PM on March 12, 2011
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Generational theft!
I see the same issue in many workplaces.
I have a young guy, just married, living in his parents basement, who is denied full time employment because the senior guy does not want to retire.
This guy is no different.
Pure entitlement.
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BrianCritchley1
7:37 PM on March 12, 2011
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and then these same people wonder why the younger generations aren't working full time jobs etc and conclude we must be lazy and entitled!
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[43S/172E]

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reheats
2:44 PM on March 12, 2011
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Why don't you just retire and enjoy your remaining time on this earth? Unless flying an airplane is more fun than what you have at home.
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DLarmer
4:36 PM on March 12, 2011
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Got me, he'll be making more after he retires.
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lookinin
2:10 PM on March 12, 2011
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Oh, for Gawd's sakes, just fly gently into that good night quit your b*tchin'. This Boomer embarrasses the h*ll out of me. My apologies to the Gen X'rs, etc. Sheesh.
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lee_rose
8:56 PM on March 11, 2011
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The whole notion of rewarding seniority in this way really irritates me. Why not have it based on performance rather than length of service? Seems logical to me.
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AA-from-TO
10:43 PM on March 11, 2011
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There is no real standard for assessing a pilot's "performance."

If by performance you mean a pilot's ability to fly planes, then all pilots are the same until disaster strikes. If you are referring to their productivity to the airline, then safety becomes an issue.

And so seniority is the most reasonable indication of a pilot's performance.
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Headnotinthesand
7:06 PM on March 12, 2011
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AA - put them on a flight simulator!
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k moss winnipeg
4:47 PM on March 12, 2011
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flying a plane is like golfing - overpaid - i could fly most of these computer driven buses

his lawyer ray hall is running for the conservatives in river heights in winnipeg - he draws $120,000 pension from air canada , probably earns another $250,000 at taylor mcaffrey and now wants to help Israel where he has traveled 200 times

came to the door campaigning and i gave him the boot when i asked him about my concerns for gay writes and other tea party issues - he said " gays are sick people and we just have to put up with them "

world is full of greedy dudes and ray hall and michael ennis are 2 beauts ...
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2skeptic
4:52 PM on March 12, 2011
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gay "writes" what the f is that?
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Hetfield
5:51 PM on March 12, 2011
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Flying a plane is golfing??

Overpaid?

gay writes?

What the F are you on?
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etgbc
6:13 PM on March 12, 2011
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Sure you could. 60,000 $ years of gaining experience. going througfh a tuff hiring process and many hrs more with the airline and you just might make it. There is so much more than just flying the airplane!
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ChangeAgent
4:27 PM on March 12, 2011
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He is an example of the spoiled baby boomers who believe everything revolves around themselves.
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andre1958
5:14 PM on March 12, 2011
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I fail to see your argument.

A baby Boomer
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detalumis
5:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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"doth protest too much, methinks". Only people more self-absorbed than the boomers are the boomer-spawn.
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[43S/172E]

More Reader Comments from the Globe and Mail:

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Redness
5:56 PM on March 12, 2011
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A better headline would have been "Man thinks rules shouldn't apply to him."

This isn't news, this happens every day. Get over yourself and enjoy your retirement FFS.
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jjockey
5:17 PM on March 12, 2011
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Simple fact is that the seniority system is a bit of a pyramid scheme. If you're lucky enough to make it to the top, then you reap all the rewards. Those that don't make it to the top don't have nearly as nice a life.
This guy made it to the top, and now he wants to stay there. Started at AC at 21, he was one of the golden children.
If he really just wants to fly airplanes, there are lots of opportunities for some great flying on the domestic routes. Oh wait, that's not what he really wants to do after all.
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DLarmer
4:34 PM on March 12, 2011
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$10,000 a month pension plus $150,000 a year for turkish airline = $270,000 per year so he losses out on picking where to fly and when, plus double dip benifits.

Boo-hoo i feel so sad.
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etgbc
4:06 PM on March 12, 2011
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As a retired pilot I know the vast majority of my peers are not in favour of going past 60. We all deteriate as we get older and personally I think that this is a younger persons profession rather than an older person. There are a few greedy pilots out there and most likely they have been that way for a long time. They are the types that book off at Christmas ect. Ennis likey does not have a life outside flying! Move over and let the next pilots advance as they did for you!
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1:53 PM on March 12, 2011
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SaturnBattery
5:59 PM on March 12, 2011
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Am I supposed to feel sorry for this guy? He'll make more in 1 month WHEN HE RETIRES than I make in 4. You should have chosen a story about a guy who'll barely make ends meet after he is forced into early retirement. Poor little rich guy doesn't really generate a lot of empathy.
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anti-estab
5:45 PM on March 12, 2011
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Some major airlines still retire their pilots at an earlier age due to the more long-haul nature of the airlines' route network. KLM pilots retire at 56 with the option up to 60 if you decide to fly part time after your 40th birthday.
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Bill Robertson
8:32 PM on March 12, 2011
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Which just proves the point that age has no bearing on the question.
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West Coast Todd
4:55 PM on March 12, 2011
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“I’m in good shape. Everybody says I don’t look like I’m turning 60, for sure.”

Dude, there just being nice!
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SHB
3:47 PM on March 12, 2011
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Why is the safety aspect of this not discussed? The 777's carry a lot of people. Sure they are automated but if I'm paying for a pilot up there, I want one that's in top health.
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andre1958
3:52 PM on March 12, 2011
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Agreed, you would not want one in the cockpit whose pacemaker is being affected by the navigation system.
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S Lucht
2:52 PM on March 12, 2011
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$10K a month pension? Sweet!

He's flying with Turkish Airlines. He could fly cargo or private if he wanted to, and often those pilots fly well beyond age 60.

Yes, it's always good optics when you start fighting for your rights when you're at the top of the heap, and stood quietly by while your predecessors adhered to the terms of their contract. Terms which weren't a secret when you or they agreed to them.

Me me me me.
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[43S/172E]

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DerFlieger
12:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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These pilots are not forced to retire at sixty, but rather had agreed every year of their 30 plus year career to leave Air Canada. They are free to work elsewhere as Capt Ennis has chosen to do.
The agreement to retire at sixty was known to these people when they signed on, and they chose not to address it all these years. They also never raised the issue within the union that represents all the pilots. Instead they seized the opportunity presented by the Americans to sue for this "right". You see, until 9/11 all major airlines has a out at sixty clause because the US didn't allow you to fly into their airspace after that. Following 9/11 many of the US carriers went through bankruptcy and their pension plans failed (which US pilots do not contribute to, unlike AC pilots). Suddenly these senior pilots were scrambling - they successfully lobbied to have the age restriction changed so they could chase the money. Before that, the point was moot.
This movement in Canada IS opportunitic. These people want to sit at the top ad infinitum and are perverting "human rights" to achieve their goal. What about the rights of those below them? We negotiated this clause in good faith; now we're suffering harm to satisfy their ego and greed.
Jazz/Chorus lets pilots fly past 60 - the majority are on long term medical leave. Of the two pilots CHRT forced AC to take back, one is now on medical leave. How are you supposed to schedule around that? Why should the younger pilots be saddled with the significantly higher risk of incapacitation while their careers are stalled by the same people?!

He has had his time, he has earned lots of money and he has a great pension, it's time to step aside for the next generation.

The baby-boom generation fell ass-backwards into great jobs with golden pensions that they don't appreciate and now it's up to the next generation to move these old folks out to the pasture.
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dh_43
5:30 PM on March 12, 2011
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that sums it up beautifully. This guy is a classic baby boomer got a great job at 21 and stayed for life. That just doesn't happen any more. He should be forced to get out now, he's merely clogging the system up for younger people behind him.
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Strat_Fender
7:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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Seems to be a perception these days that an employer has an obligation to give you something to do in your retirement years.. How about collecting your pension, choose a new career path and allow the younger worker a shot at their first chosen career.. Don't be so damn selfish!!
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pilotguy
7:06 PM on March 12, 2011
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I am a commercial pilot [duh, check username ] and though I won't mention what airline I work for (one of the big two) I think this guy is being selfish and trying to "move the goalposts" after the game has started, so to speak.

This dude started at 21, straight outta flight school (try THAT today!) and benefited his ENTIRE career from guys pulling the pin @60, now all of a sudden when it's his turn, he wants to change things up so he can keep his plush sked and ca$hflow, thus severely delaying the career progression of those lower on the totem pole.

I'm pretty sure that unless he was a total knob with money, he has no mortgage left and kids who are done university or close to it. Meanwhile the younger guys making a fraction of his wage are just starting out their families with mortgages, kids etc.

This is being selfish, plain and simple. You knew the rules going in, you had AMPLE opportunity to change the retirement age through negotiation (82% of AC pilots are AGAINST raising it because they KNOW it's eating their young) but you never did.

Move over, enjoy your retirement, and have a turkish coffee for me (but you better hope they don't read the Globe over there or you might be sharing some quiet flight decks).
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Bill Robertson
8:25 PM on March 12, 2011
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Please update your comments when you're 60
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WHouse
4:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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I wouldn't be too surprised if this dude gets a free AC pass for the rest of his life, for him and the missus.

Can you spell GREED?
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Ohcrap
4:30 PM on March 12, 2011
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If it gets rid of the air hag flight attendants, then I am all for it. Their sense of entitlement is unbelievable, much like the Air Canada attitude in general.
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jgoods
3:11 PM on March 12, 2011
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He should take his case to the Human Rights Tribunal; they'll let him work to 150 and give him half the airline for his troubles!
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Headnotinthesand
7:02 PM on March 12, 2011
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Greed, greed and more greed. Shame.

If you want to fly for AC donate half of your salary (to charity or younger pilots)
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get_real
6:36 PM on March 12, 2011
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Air Canada doesn't want pilots flying past 60, and the vast majority of the pilots don't want the rules changed to go past 60. It's just a few greedy me me me people.
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threebears4
3:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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This guy should buy his own wee plane, pay for his own petrol to fly it, and keep out of his wife's hair that way. Then he could fly where ever and whenever he likes... just like he does now. Oh yes, but it would be on his own nickel.
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[43S/172E]

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varun xm
2:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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i support the quest to work beyond 60 but that's the price one pays for collective bargaining and heck! that gilt edged pension plan is part. the pilot knew the deal when he signed on.
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Confused Philosopher
8:30 AM on March 12, 2011
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I appreciate that older workers have a lot to contribute.

When we look at this situation, it is not really a question of "forced retirement", except from Air Canada. He is able to pursue an activity he loves at good pay with another airline. This a perfectly reasonable situation. Without the forced retirement from Air Canada at 60, pilots with A/C will not have received the good salaries over their career with A/C, especially in their 50's. The collective agreement allows pilots with A/C to earn these very attractive salaries. If he does not want to be apart of it, well he shouldn't have signed up in the first place.

Any how, I wish him best of luck in his new job. He sounds like a superb pilot.
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TorontoMike
6:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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When a commuter plane crashed in the states killing all on board, several news articles described how major airlines throw the regional work to associate airlines but don't pay well for it. The result is that commuter airlines paid their pilots very little which in turn resulted in inexperienced pilots working long hours.

This story and the teachers union reminds me that there are deep inequalities in many professions. People with seniority make tons of money while less experienced folks can't even get their careers started.
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Bill Robertson
8:28 PM on March 12, 2011
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You've hit it bang-on the for the current trend inthe avitaion industry. Two grossly overworked and underpaid pilots made critical mistakes that caused the Buffalo crash two years ago. If AC has it's way all it's pilots will likewise be overworked and underpaid. There's much to be said for having at least one well paid and experienced pilot at the controls of any irpplane carrying fare-paying passengers.
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overthehill
5:09 PM on March 12, 2011
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When it came to retirement I loved my work.
It was a great adjustment to make , personally .

BUT I HAD "MY TIME". Seeing younger people (with families) taking over DID NOT BOTHER ME....I WAS GLAD FOR THEM.

I may have my faults, but I am NOT a selfish old pri ck
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WHouse
4:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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Same thing happens with other professions, such as teaching. The money's too good to give up, so the old dogs keep working, and working, and working.

OTOH, who could live on a pension of only $10,000 a month? LOL.

This guy is either very greedy, or full of himself. Either way, his wife's likely glad that he'll be flying from Istanbul starting May 2/11. He is likely a p-i-t-a to live with.
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get_real
6:32 PM on March 12, 2011
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I must disagree with you, you said he is either very greedy OR full of himself. I say he is greedy AND full of himself.
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Snowed in in Barrie
9:00 PM on March 12, 2011
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Buddy, get a life. Do you have no intersts outside of counting your money?
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A Humble Man
9:18 PM on March 12, 2011
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You`ve made your millions. Take a break and let a younger kid have some experience and make some money to support his family.
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catfish8888
12:29 PM on March 12, 2011
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Go talk to some young pilots who are facing all sorts of challenges getting on the career ladder - a senior pilot such as this chap is making gobs of money and pension and tieing up Air Canada salary and benefits that should be better distributed among new, junior pilots. If he wants to continue working then his job at Turkish Airlines is just the ticket.

I know a young pilot who has just started a new job - his salary is significantly less than Canada's average industrial wage for a job that has taken years of school and training and working up the ladder. He'd love to have the chance to work for Air Canada - he'll get there more quickly if these senior pilots move gracefully aside.
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overthehill
5:26 PM on March 12, 2011
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You get these greedy, selfish, old "individuals"(said politely) in many fields; Airline pilots, judges, doctors,senators. Just too self centered .Those of "like minded" thinking(?) support them of course.
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ALASTAIR JAMES BERRY
1:02 PM on March 12, 2011
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Personally, I would take RETIREMENT , anytime , before work .... I retired at 53 and never looked back ... and I agree you cannot argue from the single to the general, but that is the way I look at it ... (best thing I ever did ... and I'm 81 now)

Be your own BOSS ... Forget all the work place B.S. ... relax and take it easy for 11 months of the year ... (The weather on Maui is sunny and warm today)

11 months ? YES APRIL WILL BE HELL ... working out your T # 1 GENERAL TAX RETURN ... it is far more complicated after retirement ...
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William Doyle
7:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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He knew the rules now it is only right that he has to comply.
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Ken Berger
7:23 PM on March 12, 2011
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I weep crocodile tears for this man. He has to take a job now for 130,000 when he was making 230,000 working for Air Canada. He was overly paid in the first place and now his nose is out of joint because he had to retire from Air Canada with a 10,000 per month pension. Cut off his pension and let him fly for Turkish Airlines.
7:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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Buy a Super Cub on floats and start living. With the amount of retirement money he will receive, he could move up to a Beaver or something of that nature.
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detalumis
6:46 PM on March 12, 2011
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Even though he knew about this date for the last 40 years and he has a fantastic pension he still thinks his life is over if he stops working. In 5 years I guess he will find out if that is the case or not.
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RBenstein
6:58 PM on March 12, 2011
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Not many people are going to be on your side, Mike.

One major point: what does a healthy 60-year old who has been doing the same job since he was 21 do at the point of retirement ? Many men are at a loss as to what to simply do with themselves. Many divorces and heart attacks occur with newly retired people.

I can sympathize with him on this, but perhaps he could start thinking about other interests when 65 hits.
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D_T1
6:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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If pilots are allowed to fly after they turn 60, they may flight again if they BELIEVE they are still fit to fly. Where is the end.

For the sake of flight safety, pilots should retire at 60. These pilots know so well from the beginning that they will retire at 60. If they think they are so right, they should have fought this rule when they were much younger.

SELFISH!!
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2skeptic
5:10 PM on March 12, 2011
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Wow. The claws sure come out when you find out what someone else's pension is!

Miaow.
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JonBraun
4:42 PM on March 12, 2011
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We new pilots want into the business as well. I'm gonna be 60 before I even get a job at Air Canada if they keep raising the retirement ages.

And too all those passengers out there. Do you really want a senior citizen flying your plane?
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dh_43
5:54 PM on March 12, 2011
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i wonder if this has anything to do with air Canada drifting in and out of bankruptcy protection every ten years or so?
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get_real
6:22 PM on March 12, 2011
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No, it has to do with Westjet being subsidized by the Alberta government giving them free jet fuel.
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JMurray1
3:51 PM on March 12, 2011
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I recall a pilot at Northwest Airlines in MSP in the early 1950s, "Deke" Delong, retiring at 65 years of age. He ended up flying DC-3s exclusively MSP-Winnipeg. Shortly afterwards the age of retirement was set at 60 years by U.S. government decree. Canada must have followed.
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West Coast Todd
4:53 PM on March 12, 2011
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Dude that was like 60 years ago... what are you talking about?
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Canadian in Thailand
4:29 PM on March 12, 2011
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This man could become a first. I have yet to hear of a person who retires and says he/she wishes they could have worked an extra few years, myself included.

If you don't have the money, ahhhh, that's a different situation.

So Captain, if you don't manage to keep some younger pilot from getting your job, com'on down and we'll have a sundowner together while I explain the ropes to you.
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Deryk
11:02 AM on March 12, 2011
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Am a two million miler, with that said, Pilots are my choice for the number 1 profession for respect. With that said, this gentlemen has his views, however he is part of a very strong union, and therefore his union, would have to champion this cause. Airlines of course like it when someone earning top dollar, with benefits, leaves their payroll. Word has it, new pilots make very little. I like gray hair in the cockpit, and only hope the medical profession, has some valid input, who should and who should not, pilot a plane. There are of course always two of them up there.
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nice_try
12:04 PM on March 12, 2011
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Deryk:
His union, ACPA, is not "championing" his cause. ACPA, and the majority of AC pilots want to keep the retirement age at 60. The only ones who want it to change are the greedy ones who are about 56 and older, and who never said a peep for their whole careers while others were being "forced" to retire ahead of them. I would have had some respect for these guys if they actually spoke up in their 40s, but look at this clown Mike Ennis. He waited until he is 50 DAYS from retirement.
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69buick
6:39 PM on March 12, 2011
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Can you imagine a 60 year old trying to hang onto a job he has worked at all his life?

What a crazy world we live in!
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benner
5:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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And this sums up in a nutshell why the public hates the unions!

a) This guy pulls down $230k a year for babysitting a computer 8 days a month.
b) The entire system is base on seniority, so there is no incentive to be good at your job
c) It forces a basically fully trained, fully able person not to work any more.
d) The pension is better than 95% of peoples wages and kicks in at 60 (more?)

What a complete display of mismanagement of resources, both human and capital.
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RBenstein
7:03 PM on March 12, 2011
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a) flying an airplane sounds like nothing until the said airplane, or computer system malfunctions and the pilot is charged with the job of saving the lives of everyone on board.
Can happen any day, any time, any point of the flight and for any reason

Don't try it at home, Benner.
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Bill Robertson
8:31 PM on March 12, 2011
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I'm sure these are all the thoughts you feel, until you're in the air, in trouble, and you're praying to God to have this guy save your@$$ - at which time his age and how much he makes will be of no consequence to you
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etgbc
8:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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wow! must be a loser. The union does not want this. I Guess it's your public not mine!
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JohanGK
4:56 PM on March 12, 2011
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Gee... some of the comments here are so typically Canadianl!! Secondly, I am not sure that the author of this article clearly articulated the central issue.

The fact is, on this issue, Air Canada is grossly out of step with what's happening in the rest of the world. Retirement ages of the worlds' largest airlines....

British Airways 65
American Airlines 65
US Airways 65 (remember Sulley... I'd feel comfortable hearing his voice from the cockpit)
Continental Airlines 65
Lufthansa 65
Nipon 65
WESTJET 65

... I could go on!
ps. Canada has a great health care system..but you know what.. It's not THE BEST IN THE WORLD!
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overthehill
5:18 PM on March 12, 2011
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Airline pilots, judges, doctors.senators
Some would "hang on" until they dropped in the saddle.
This boils down to selfishness...nothing more. There is lots to keep one occupied after one retires.
Where are you going to draw the line?

The only reason why retiring later, is encouraged, is to reduce pension plan
obligations nothing else.
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get_real
6:27 PM on March 12, 2011
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What does any of these have to do with Air Canada? If they want to retire at 60, as they have negotiated who are you greedy pigs to try to change the rules to suit a few at the expense of the rest.
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Bill Jackson Jr
4:32 PM on March 12, 2011
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What really matters is whether his performance will decline beyond age 60. Historically, I suspect it would, but with modern health care and exercise, many 60 year olds are better able to perform than those much younger. I am not at all surprised to see the union abandon him - typical collectivist behaviour.

I am a faculty member. We used to have mandatory 65 retirement in Ontario. McGuinty abandoned it, as I think he should have. However, there should be mandatory performance assessment at 65 (and perhaps other ages too) if the faculty members seeks to stay on. As it is, the deadwood is not leaving now, universities are get hit with higher salaries, and a hiring freeze in consequence. What a mess. I have no problem with allowing stellar teachers and researches to keep going, just as I would with pilots. Base the decision on performance, not age.
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Bill Robertson
4:42 PM on March 12, 2011
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This whole age thing is nothing more than BS based on the 1940's. Aviation today is highly technical and highly monitored, as are the crews both for medical and proficiency reasons. If they fail their medical or proficiency at any age they should be out. As long as they maintain medical and proficiency they should be in, if they want to. I'd rather be flying with guys upfront who have experience, know how to think, and do math in their heads without resoting to calculators for numbers over 10. Sully Sulenberger didn't put that crate in the Hudson and save everyone because he had no experience, I'll take the guys like Sully, or the Bob Pearson's of the world, over the young kids any day when the going gets tough.
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West Coast Todd
4:50 PM on March 12, 2011
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But if you have well qualified younger people, why keep an old person around?
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2skeptic
4:57 PM on March 12, 2011
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Let's see if I can state it simply for you:

experience
calm in the face of emergency
deal with any possible air situation
able to communicate appropriately with air controllers

and oh yeah, in case the entire cockpit goes haywire...are able to do a few calculations in their head to get the fricken plane down safely!
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get_real
6:30 PM on March 12, 2011
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If Sully was a little younger he could have missed the birds.
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Masdar
7:21 PM on March 12, 2011
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If the pilot in question meets the medical requirements commiserate with his rating it clearly a discriminatory policy on the part Air Canada to require that the pilot retire at age sixty. However having said this, perhaps Air Canada could create a position for those pilots that wish to retain their seniority, after the mandatory retirement age, without taking space up in the left seat.
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North of You
5:48 PM on March 12, 2011
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MPs and senators and heads of state have no retirement age. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. So if he still can pass the ride….let him fly to his heart’s content until his medical expires I say.
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B_.
5:35 PM on March 12, 2011
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We already have many more pilots than we used to because they insist upon flying these little dinky toy "less than 100 seat" jets everywhere. Seniority must have been a lot bigger issue years ago when the smaller planes were the 737.

If the industry standard is 65, then it should be 65, end of story.
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BCopes
11:42 AM on March 12, 2011
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While this guy's complaint is absolutely based on selfish reasons, Air Canada should reconsider their retirement age. I'm only young, but I have no desire to retire at 60. Lifespans are increasing. It is not unfathomable for a healthy person forced to retire at 60 to spend 25 - 30 years in retirement. Who wants to do that? As a young person I'd much rather let him work then pay for his retirement.

Retirement ages are going to need to be increased as more and more people find that they are healthy at 60 and are living until 85 - 90. Hell, in two decades I would imagine the number of people hitting 100 will skyrocket.

As I said, while I think this guy is acting quite selfish, the overall argument of retirement age is one that should absolutely be looked at.
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A_G1
4:01 PM on March 12, 2011
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Lifespans have indeed increased over the years, however, economic needs have arisen which greatly benefit from the 60 yr old person retiring.

I think if a person at age 60 can afford to get by on their pension, they should endeavour to do so.

(And I certainly think $10K/mo is more than enough!)
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Stoneywalker
8:38 PM on March 11, 2011
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I think that he should be allowed to stay working provided he meets the health standard and he should be allowed all the seniority he has earned . These conditions should however come at a price. The price should be that his salary or compensation should be set at the equivalent value of his retirement income. After all that is what he agreed to in his contract . He can't have it both ways.
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Battling Ignorance
10:31 PM on March 11, 2011
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I understand there are also problems with other countries gov'ts. Many don't allow a Captain to be over 60, others only one crew can be over 60. It would create a complex situation, he is #1 & can pick his flights...what do you do when #2 also wants those flights & they are both over 60.
The first time one of them suffers a heart attack at the controls will end all the discussion.
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DerFlieger
12:07 PM on March 12, 2011
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That in fact was offered to them...but they want it all.

[onspeed]

Personally I am neutral on the issue.

But doesn't it all work out in the wash? I doubt most pilots will fly 'til they die. Some stay a little longer, some a little less.

I wonder how many of the pilots against "Fly Past 60" will have a problem "letting go of the controls" when they reach 60?

If the average age for a new hire is 35, wouldn't it be better for your guy's pension if you can stay longer?..ie more years of service

It won't just work out in the wash. I currently work for an age 65 airline that changed a few years back. There will be huge ramifications in terms of lost salary for those lower in seniority. 90% of the people who turn 60 will not take pensions, would you walk away from a $240 k job where you barely work? They will keep that going as long as they possibly can, and in 5 years time you will be fighting the age 70 issue. At least that's how it's worked out at my shop.

In regards to the article, I would have thought the fly past 60 group would have used a better spokesperson. That guy comes of as arrogant, his pension alone is more than double the average Canadian's salary, he makes no reference to the current system that got him into his current job. I'd say the average citizen feels zero sympathy for him. My favorite part is where he says he still loves to fly, dude hasn't actually flown an airplane in 30 years! If he wants to fly he should go work at Hicks and Lawrence. The issue is he still wants to make huge coin, that is why he's going to Turkey.

[onspeed]

On a side note, for the pilot featured in the article. Not only does he want to stay on and put some young pilots family in jeopardy when they get laid of from AC. If he can't eat their lunch he is going to go over to Turkey and steal some job away from a young Turkish pilot and he's going to do that all the while collecting his 110K a year pension. The age 60 crowd needs to find a better way to settle this with the younger generation other than the typical "it's my right" story. You are the ones making the change not us.

[Rockie]

Rockie,

You know that change cannot be implemented until the final ax on this
matter is dropped.. The term "Generational theft" is now being adopted
by many of the younger generation (not just aviation) with the feelings
of being scorned by those who prospered by vacancies at 60, holding on
to what they feel, and many would say, are legally entitled to. This
matter is not only aviation related. Legal consult has taken place, however
until the final, and I repeat final, verdicts are implemented, and I repeat
implemented, no rapid changes in our current system of pay will result.

A couple of things I think you are incorrect about. First is your opinion that changes cannot be made until the final axe on this issue is dropped. We can begin to change our pay system anytime our contract is opened for negotiation, such as now. We also should change our pay system even if mandatory retirement was not an issue because it is the most stupid and ridiculously obsolete pay system out there. It is also the fundamental cause of all the angst over this issue, not the fact people want to work longer.

Secondly, no rapid change to our system of pay will ever occur. It is going to take time to make the changes in the least disruptive way for everybody. We should have been working toward doing that a long time ago, because the one change that is happening fairly rapidly is the end of mandatory retirement. We are wasting precious time and money trying to prevent what cannot (and should not) be prevented instead of doing something concrete to make the change benefit everybody equally.

Eventually we will have a pay system that removes the unfairness where junior pilots go into debt to subsidize the excessive pay for the senior pilots (ACPA President's testimony before the Parliamentary committee). The acrimony will disappear and everybody will enjoy a good living from the day they join until the day they decide to retire. But that will NEVER HAPPEN until we smarten up and force our union to at least pretend to obey the law and think realistically about the future well-being of the pilot group.

And please, PLEASE stop bringing greed into this conversation. It distracts from the work that needs to be done, and both sides get smeared with the same crap.

[beast]

PLEASE stop bringing greed into this conversation

Have you bothered to peruse any of the 144 comments on the article? No one believes your bullshit for a second

Ennis was the worst possible spokesman you could have chosen!

Hired at 21, No.1 on the list??!?! You could have at least tried to find someone who would engender a little sympathy.

Have you ever seen the "Office" episode, where Michael is playing basketball with the warehouse guys - realizes he's ahead by a few points, and after getting elbowed, ends the match, with whoever was "ahead at the moment" taking the game?

Remember that?

[Rockie]

PLEASE stop bringing greed into this conversation

Have you bothered to peruse any of the 144 comments on the article? No one believes your bullshit for a second

Ennis was the worst possible spokesman you could have chosen!

Hired at 21, No.1 on the list??!?! You could have at least tried to find someone who would engender a little sympathy.

Have you ever seen the "Office" episode, where Michael is playing basketball with the warehouse guys - realizes he's ahead by a few points, and after getting elbowed, ends the match, with whoever was "ahead at the moment" taking the game?

Remember that?

Have you bothered to read any of my posts? I am not part of the flypast 60 group and he is not my spokesman. I am only interested in my union making smart decisions and taking care of the membership as their position as our representatives requires them to do. So far they are myopic and are violating Canadian Labour Law.

Get your mind off the individuals and try to think about the actual issue for two seconds.

[BLZD1]

Generation screwed!!!!!

How would you say to a reduction in pay so my group could get a nice pay raise. You know since we will have to stay at the bottom for longer. I meen all you want is to stay and do what you love so much, money is not the reason!!

Bush Pilot,

You are right!! That is the only fair way to change to fly past 60. AC pilots are working in a deferred pay system. We have to go to a WestJet type system for work rules and pay to make it all work fairly.

[43S/172E]

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wingman444
9:51 AM on March 13, 2011
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To the pilot in question, you didn't seem to have a problem when those above you, retired at 60 and made way for people like yourself to move up the ladder. Now that you're there, you wanna stay some more? Good luck trying to get along with the rest of your crew for last month at AC. I know, i'm one of them.

Since you mentioned that now you'd be flying for Turkish Airlines, I felt that it was only right that they knew what they were in for, so this link was sent to the DFO at Turkish Airlines.
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wingman444
10:23 AM on March 13, 2011
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GREED!

[Rockie]

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wingman444
9:51 AM on March 13, 2011
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To the pilot in question, you didn't seem to have a problem when those above you, retired at 60 and made way for people like yourself to move up the ladder. Now that you're there, you wanna stay some more? Good luck trying to get along with the rest of your crew for last month at AC. I know, i'm one of them.

Since you mentioned that now you'd be flying for Turkish Airlines, I felt that it was only right that they knew what they were in for, so this link was sent to the DFO at Turkish Airlines.
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wingman444
10:23 AM on March 13, 2011
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GREED!

Here are some simple facts 43S/172E. I encourage you to take a few minutes to verify them and then answer a simple question.

Mandatory retirement for millions of provincially regulated workers has been abolished because it is age discriminatory. The Federal government is in the process of doing the same with unanimous consent of every political party. The CHRC/CHRT and courts have consistently and repeatedly ruled against maintaining mandatory retirement. Check these facts please and answer this:

Do you think any entity in Canada will maintain mandatory retirement for 800,000+ federal workers because a few hundred Air Canada pilots are (in the words of the ACPA president) overpaid?

If you think they will you are in for a disappointing surprise. If you think mandatory retirement is gone for federal workers as well then why are you wasting time fighting it and posting irrelevant and uninformed comments about it. Why aren't you working to change the pay system to alter the equation more in the favour of junior pilots?