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[Martin Tamme]

There must be a whole lot more to the story - Disco. It is highly unusual for a T/A to go to the membership, without the blessing of the MEC!

So, you are telling us that the MEC voted unanimously to "send it to the membership" without giving it the support of the MEC.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time buying into that one.

That's exactly what happened. Call your union reps, and they will tell you the same. They also passed a motion disallowing any elected union officials, or any ACPA Committee (Negots Committee excepted), to speak for/against the merits of the TA.

It's going to be 'grass roots' at its finest - members will get to vote without any undue influence by union officials.

[Jungle Jet]

However the original forum was closed over litigation directed at ACPA by the fly past 60 camp. It included naming the individual forum moderators.

That is categorically incorrect. Your credibility continues to suffer as you repeatedly publish rumours and misinformation instead of fact, and I for one would truly appreciate you refraining from slanderous statements that have no basis. There was never any litigation "directed at ACPA by the fly past 60 camp" regarding the Forum, and despite previous persistent fears of previous moderators that somehow morphed into allegations that individual moderators were personally the subject of the litigation (that did not exist), that is utter B.S. So how about sticking to flying airplanes, sir. I hope that you can do a better job of doing that, than you do of being a journalist.

Would it be more correct to say that you announced to the Tribunal that you intended to enter into evidence (but never actually did) posts from the ACPA forum that were copied by someone else but that you had acquired copies of, and that the posts were copied off of a private forum without permission from the author?

Thank you for clarifying.

[Stu Pidasso]

Poor choice of words on my part. The part I'm having a hard time with is why the MEC is not commenting.

Either reject it, or recommend it.

Leaving me highly suspicious that there was a split and this is the trade off?

[Say Altitude]

Leaving me highly suspicious that there was a split and this is the trade off?

Bingo. If the MEC is split - then back it goes. No for me.

[Raymond Hall]

Would it be more correct to say that you announced to the Tribunal that you intended to enter into evidence (but never actually did) posts from the ACPA forum that were copied by someone else but that you had acquired copies of, and that the posts were copied off of a private forum without permission from the author?

That would be closer to the facts, but it is still a long way from being accurate.

The statement that I took offence to above was the allegation that anyone from "the fly past 60 crowd" ever entered into any litigation or even contemplated entering into any litigation with respect to the Forum's moderators. I have heard those false allegations before, but the problem with malicious rumours like that is that there is no way to refute them, once they are made. And the more they get repeated, the more they get believed. That doesn't make them true. Believe me, it wasn't my idea to kill the Forum. The Air Canada pilots accomplished that all by themselves, long after I was banished from participating.

[rudder]

They also passed a motion disallowing any elected union officials, or any ACPA Committee (Negots Committee excepted), to speak for/against the merits of the TA.

It's going to be 'grass roots' at its finest - members will get to vote without any undue influence by union officials.

'grass roots' at its finest? Try abdication of leadership.

This is an attempt by the MEC to accept no responsibility for the TA and no responsibility for the vote result.

Depriving the members of the voices and opinions of their committees and elected representatives? Sounds more like stifling dissenting voices in an attempt to achieve a specific result. 50%+1 is a failure but this MEC will declare it a victory.

As Charlie Sheen would say: DUH! WINNING!

[Fanblade]

They also passed a motion disallowing any elected union officials, or any ACPA Committee (Negots Committee excepted), to speak for/against the merits of the TA.

It's going to be 'grass roots' at its finest - members will get to vote without any undue influence by union officials.

'grass roots' at its finest? Try abdication of leadership.

This is an attempt by the MEC to accept no responsibility for the TA and no responsibility for the vote result.

Depriving the members of the voices and opinions of their committees and elected representatives? Sounds more like stifling dissenting voices in an attempt to achieve a specific result. 50%+1 is a failure but this MEC will declare it a victory.

As Charlie Sheen would say: DUH! WINNING!

Rudder,

Your buying into the BS.

Just talked to an MEC member. I am very comfortable with the why's. Actually quite impressed with how much time was taken for me as I suspect they are very busy at the moment.

Are all pilot groups like the national enquirer? Or do they all reside here?

[yycflyguy]

Gotta say I am agreeing with Rudder.

[RussD]

There must be a whole lot more to the story - Disco. It is highly unusual for a T/A to go to the membership, without the blessing of the MEC!

So, you are telling us that the MEC voted unanimously to "send it to the membership" without giving it the support of the MEC.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time buying into that one.

That's exactly what happened. Call your union reps, and they will tell you the same. They also passed a motion disallowing any elected union officials, or any ACPA Committee (Negots Committee excepted), to speak for/against the merits of the TA.

It's going to be 'grass roots' at its finest - members will get to vote without any undue influence by union officials.

Your kidding right? Governance by referendum at it's worst is more apt. Cowardice on behalf of the leadership and NC at best.

You guys really need to get your shit together. Whether anybody else in the country likes or respects your organization or not, you are the largest organized pilot group in the country. You have to start, at some point, to act responsibly and ethically.

It may be genetically impossible for an organization that was founded on the premise of defeating a fundamental premise of unionism to act in a principled manner. More like a never ending parade of private interest groups highjacking the agenda for a while. Get it together ladies. The world (our world ) is watching.

[Tiny Tyke]

Air Georgian had a 52% CBA ratification vote in 2009 and it was devastating to the pilot group.....Of course it was the entire work force of GGN voting on that one. Be careful boys, this one is really important.

[Rockie]

You have to start, at some point, to act responsibly and ethnically.

That ladies and gentlemen, is the barefaced truth that we must recognize or consign this industry in Canada to the dumpster.

[yycflyguy]

You have to start, at some point, to act responsibly and ethnically.

Which ethnicity would that be? Asian? Latin? Arab?

[rudder]

Rudder,

Your buying into the BS.

Just talked to an MEC member. I am very comfortable with the why's. Actually quite impressed with how much time was taken for me as I suspect they are very busy at the moment.

Are all pilot groups like the national enquirer? Or do they all reside here?

Think about it - all voices silenced except those of the committee that generated the TA. Do you expect them to speak against it? They are inherently conflicted. Where is the counter-balancing opinion? That is why the first level of vetting of their work is the Executive. By releasing the TA for a vote without any commentary on its relative value the MEC has failed in its role to offer a preliminary judgement on the degree of success of the NC considering the realistic range of possible outcomes.

One could infer that the presentation of the TA to the membership for ratification is a tacit approval of it by the MEC with the option for plausable denial of accountablity for any of the fallout that may come from acceptance and implementation of the controversial provisions of this TA. This is not CCAA. There is no gun at the head of the NC nor the MEC. Victor Li is not standing nearby with his checkbook waiting for an answer. What is next, giving the pilots a short-gate window to vote? Or how about "vote yes or else...."? I wonder if when cows are being herded that they are aware that they are being herded?

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

Your buying into the BS.

Just talked to an MEC member. I am very comfortable with the why's. Actually quite impressed with how much time was taken for me as I suspect they are very busy at the moment.

Are all pilot groups like the national enquirer? Or do they all reside here?

Think about it - all voices silenced except those of the committee that generated the TA. Do you expect them to speak against it? They are inherently conflicted. Where is the counter-balancing opinion? That is why the first level of vetting of their work is the Executive. By releasing the TA for a vote without any commentary on its relative value the MEC has failed in its role to offer a preliminary judgement on the degree of success of the NC considering the realistic range of possible outcomes.

One could infer that the presentation of the TA to the membership for ratification is a tacit approval of it by the MEC with the option for plausable denial of accountablity for any of the fallout that may come from acceptance and implementation of the controversial provisions of this TA. This is not CCAA. There is no gun at the head of the NC nor the MEC. Victor Li is not standing nearby with his checkbook waiting for an answer. What is next, giving the pilots a short-gate window to vote? Or how about "vote yes or else...."? I wonder if when cows are being herded that they are aware that they are being herded?

Rudder,

Your way off on this one. I get from your posts that you are very well connected somehow with ACPA communication even though you do not work at AC.

The latest MEC newsletter is poorly worded. Do you have the ability to pick up a phone and call for clarification? I do and did.

The MEC members are free to speak their mind. The person I spoke with was very balanced about the pluses and his concerns. Yes he had concerns.

The intent of the communication protocol is to prevent sub committee's or the MEC's voice from being used as influence pedaling and allow Committee and MEC members to speak their mind. It was before my time but I understand there has been phone calls telling people which way to vote in the past, while the MEC itself had its hands tied by a promise to recommend. An email from a committee chair, (not vetted by the MEC) attempting to influence the Skyregional poll last fall. The letter in fact may have. It was close I am told.

However I can call, and will be doing so, any committee or MEC member I want. Scope, pension ect. Unlike the recent past they are free to give me their full opinion.

You may hate ACPA. Whatever. I came from your side of the fence. I remember not even being given a chance to vote.

No system is perfect. What I see going on now as far as the communication protocol is concerned I have no problem with. Actually I welcome it, particularly considering the amount of change being placed in front of us all at once.

[Murray Sinal]

Fanblade,

Excellent post.

I am looking forward to an opportunity to review the TA and subsequently decide how to cast my vote. There are a lot of seemingly very emotional opinions and ideas out there. I would prefer to use all available resources to gain as much factual information as possible before taking a course of action.

Furthermore, while not historically being one of the biggest fans of the way we have conducted ourselves as an Association in the past, one thing I am VERY certain of is that it would be extremely difficult to find an individual with more industry experience, brains, talent, and integrity than the NC chair-- Captain EH. Anyone at all who knows him or who has had the pleasure of working with him will agree.

This alone is more than enough make me shut my mouth, open my ears, and set aside as much time as necessary to make an informed decision.

Murray Sinal