Air Canada to create discount airline

[dcabrown]

What job creation are you people talking about!??????????????

They are flipping taking 4 B767 and 6 A319 of mainline and allocating them to this LCC! How is this job creation??? Do you think that AC will once they ramp up this LCC to 50 jets (long term plan) fly this B767 to Madrid at low cost while their 777 will go to FRA at full price???? That would be just stupid, majority would fly on their LCC trips....

I shoulda been more clear, I was referring more to CYTZ/YUL/YOW and the expansion there of capacity which then leads to lower fares, then leads to low/no profitability etc..

But I agree with you, there is no net creation of jobs from the LCC announcement. Just a way to try and get costs down

[LegoMan]

Hey as long as I can go to Cuba for cheap I don't care what you guys are making. I like competition, the fact that the wages are low is not the consumers fault its yours!

[Black Cat]

What job creation are you people talking about!??????????????

They are flipping taking 4 B767 and 6 A319 of mainline and allocating them to this LCC! How is this job creation??? Do you think that AC will once they ramp up this LCC to 50 jets (long term plan) fly this B767 to Madrid at low cost while their 777 will go to FRA at full price???? That would be just stupid, majority would fly on their LCC trips....

Financial post quoted AC saying 450 new pilot positions. Did not clarify on how many would come from ac layoffs but it did say the newbies would be acpa represented.

[cdnpilot77]

Hey as long as I can go to Cuba for cheap I don't care what you guys are making. I like competition, the fact that the wages are low is not the consumers fault its yours!

And because guys like you don't care about the other guy, things get worse and worse. That is as you have described, ad nauseum, why you had to get out of the industry, because it finally came back to YOU! You bitch, ad nauseum, about how bad it is and then spout off with this drivel....how ironic!

[Beefitarian]

Hey as long as I can go to Cuba for cheap I don't care what you guys are making. I like competition, the fact that the wages are low is not the consumers fault its yours!

And because guys like you don't care about the other guy, things get worse and worse. That is as you have described, ad nauseum, why you had to get out of the industry, because it finally came back to YOU! You bitch, ad nauseum, about how bad it is and then spout off with this drivel....how ironic!

Guys like him?
a)Pilots.
b)Sarcastic people.
c)Air travellers.
d)All of the above.

[cdnpilot77]

Hey as long as I can go to Cuba for cheap I don't care what you guys are making. I like competition, the fact that the wages are low is not the consumers fault its yours!

And because guys like you don't care about the other guy, things get worse and worse. That is as you have described, ad nauseum, why you had to get out of the industry, because it finally came back to YOU! You bitch, ad nauseum, about how bad it is and then spout off with this drivel....how ironic!

Guys like him?
a)Pilots.
b)Sarcastic people.
c)Air travellers.
d)All of the above.

People that are bitter about their lot in life, especially one that they most likely created themselves and bitch about it relentlessly because it's always someone else who is to blame, its never their own issues that got them where they are...so could be d) I guess...certainly doesn't apply to everyone in any of the groups, just a select few

[Beefitarian]

Oh, that. Sorry. Marriage looked better in the brochure where it looked like I'd finish my CPL.

[Mig29]

Financial post quoted AC saying 450 new pilot positions. Did not clarify on how many would come from ac layoffs but it did say the newbies would be acpa represented.

[/quote]

Those are jobs that AC is to hire based on planned attrition over then next 4-5 years. Everyone knows that about 100+ new guys per year are coming after the summer. It's just a matter if more of those flypast60 die hards are going to chose to stay then what AC estimates. So, no I don't think that is expansion it's just guys being hired to fill some slots at the old AC and many more hired to this new LCC (which I hope never materializes)

Hey as long as I can go to Cuba for cheap I don't care what you guys are making. I like competition, the fact that the wages are low is not the consumers fault its yours!

Hey Legoman, I guess you need more challenging blocks to build before you realize why this mentality is going to self destruct eventually .....your own kids may be flying to Cuba on these low maintenance/safety no frill airlines.....but that's ok.

I shoulda been more clear, I was referring more to CYTZ/YUL/YOW and the expansion there of capacity which then leads to lower fares, then leads to low/no profitability etc..

But I agree with you, there is no net creation of jobs from the LCC announcement. Just a way to try and get costs down

Yes, that is actually in fact an expansion Dcabrown with regards to AC express....but only temporary...because once Porter starts to bleed or is defunct in a year or two (which I don't wish upon them by the way), there will be no more up to 32 daily ONE WAY trips from YTZ - YUL! Yes, that is correct, I saw the flight schedules for both PD and AC Express and they are going to go at each other from 6:20am until 10pm 32 times a day in one direction!!! Flights departing 20-30min after each other !!! WTF MAN!! The market just can't support that, and they will eventually drop the flights down and raise the cost once PD stops breathing ....ultimately reducing those pilot jobs again.....I wish I'm wrong guys, there are only so many people leaving in YUL and YYZ

[LegoMan]

Discount Airlines in Canada means same priced fares with less customer service and even more uncomfortable seats. Seeing as Airlines are already stretched to the limits with costs, I doubt running a "no frills" airline will be profitable and long lived in Canada. Works in the U.S. where they have many more larger cities closer to each other and can hop around. Have you ever seen the network there? They have 1 or 2 flights a day from west to east direct between 2 cities and then 5 flights a day that are hoping all over the U.S. with 3 stopovers before you get to your destination. Companies don't have that option here in Canada.

[yyz monkey]

Hey as long as I can go to Cuba for cheap I don't care what you guys are making. I like competition, the fact that the wages are low is not the consumers fault its yours!

This is why kids are getting toys with lead & cadmium in the paint..

[Beefitarian]

Hey as long as I can go to Cuba for cheap I don't care what you guys are making. I like competition, the fact that the wages are low is not the consumers fault its yours!

This is why kids are getting toys with lead & cadmium in the paint..

That's the largest part of the reason. It's also why the pilots are suffering mal-nutrition and fatige on route to Cuba.

[teacher]

I'd just like to point out something here.

CR says that these airplanes will be deployed on underserved routes. WTF!?!?!?!

There are NO underserved routes in the vacation market which is why:

1) The margins and ROIs are so low with vacations so cheap
2) A LCC is the only thing they think can make any money doing this
3) Several companies in the past (both airlines and vacation tour companies) have either flirted with the idea and abandoned it OR went bankrupt providing this service on these "under served" routes.

AND NOW CR wants to flood this market with 50 more planes. Seriously? The only thing I can think of as a reason is to:

1) Replace AC vacations with this LCC therefore shifting flying away from mainline
2) This is the first step in replacing ALL of AC flying over time with this new LCC
3) Shift focus of any new TA and "bait 'n switch" the pilot group into taking concessions

[DHC5]

GOOD GOD Everyone, have you all had your head in the sand? The new AC LCC is named "Blues Air".... kinda obvious isn't it?? They had to TANGO with JAZZ with a nice CHORUS to add a bit of ZIP into the domestic LCC world to only fail like a TED SONG! lol

[yycflyguy]

1) Replace AC vacations with this LCC therefore shifting flying away from mainline
2) This is the first step in replacing ALL of AC flying over time with this new LCC
3) Shift focus of any new TA and "bait 'n switch" the pilot group into taking concessions

Correct.

If I may add a fourth point.

4) Create a new "B" scale which will become the new norm during the next round of negotiations lowering mainline rates to that of the LCC.

Why only whipsaw 2 groups when you can whipsaw 4? SR, Jazz, ACPA, ACPA LCC. Awesome.

[OceansEdge]

Of course this could always be a QANTAS type move:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011 ... 191876.htm

Create a shell company, hire out all the jobs offshore - a little trickier to do in Canada, but if Canjet and ilk can do it........

[fingersmac]

Of course this could always be a QANTAS type move:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011 ... 191876.htm

Create a shell company, hire out all the jobs offshore - a little trickier to do in Canada, but if Canjet and ilk can do it........

Air Canada seems to be heading in that direction with this announcement of a potential LCC. Qantas has a wholly-owned subsidiary called Jetstar which is a LCC designed to compete with Virgin Blue. What initially started as domestic service, has now expanded to international service with A330s and B787s (starting 2012). Their terms and conditions are far below what their sister company, Qantas, offers.

Want to work for Jetstar? Better be type rated or else you have to pay top dollar for a job. Enter as an ab-initio cadet, pay around $180K+. Enter as an experienced cadet, pay around $85K+. If you're experienced but not type-rated/endorsed, pay again (last figure I heard was $35K).

http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/about-us/c ... pilot-faqs

Would Jetstar cover the cost of the Endorsement or Refresher Courses?

Where training is required to gain an endorsement prior to being employed, the cost of gaining the endorsement (Airbus or Boeing) is borne by the applicant. Applicants will be offered the opportunity to enter into an Endorsement Agreement which will allow them to repay the cost incurred through a salary sacrifice arrangement over a period of 33 months. This is only offered through our preferred training supplier Alteon who are based out of Brisbane and Melbourne.

Cadet Program pricing: http://www.jetstar.com/au/en/pilot-cadet-program.aspx

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Sign me up!!!

[CSk3RampBOY]

What job creation are you people talking about!??????????????

They are flipping taking 4 B767 and 6 A319 of mainline and allocating them to this LCC! How is this job creation??? Do you think that AC will once they ramp up this LCC to 50 jets (long term plan) fly this B767 to Madrid at low cost while their 777 will go to FRA at full price???? That would be just stupid, majority would fly on their LCC trips....

Apparently that's not the case. All six of the A319 are the ones that they got back from mexicana, and that are just sitting on the ramp not being used. The 767s are the ones that are coming from Hawaiian, I believe?
I am too skeptical about this new LCC, but the deal that AC is presenting is as follows. Maintain the mainline fleet size and expand it by 2 airplanes per year. Wether the agreement would be binding or not, that I am not sure.

[yycflyguy]

What job creation are you people talking about!??????????????

They are flipping taking 4 B767 and 6 A319 of mainline and allocating them to this LCC! How is this job creation??? Do you think that AC will once they ramp up this LCC to 50 jets (long term plan) fly this B767 to Madrid at low cost while their 777 will go to FRA at full price???? That would be just stupid, majority would fly on their LCC trips....

Apparently that's not the case. All six of the A319 are the ones that they got back from mexicana, and that are just sitting on the ramp not being used. The 767s are the ones that are coming from Hawaiian, I believe?
I am too skeptical about this new LCC, but the deal that AC is presenting is as follows. Maintain the mainline fleet size and expand it by 2 airplanes per year. Wether the agreement would be binding or not, that I am not sure.

Negative ghostrider. The Mexicana planes are currently being used at the mainline operation, ironically, doing many of the YUL-MEX, YYZ-MEX flying. The 767's are also currently being utilized as retirement replacements. The LCC allows for up to 20 A319 (basically all of them) to be added to the LCC OC. This fleet planning is status quo, just a re-allocation of the fins amongst the LCC and mainline... oh, and a new "B" scale.

[CSk3RampBOY]

Really?? Then I stand corrected.

[Mig29]

Just think about it for a second....

WHY would AC get MORE planes to fly these "undeserved" routes while they are "bleeding" money on the current high cost flights to Europe and Caribbean??

These guys are just business man who don't give a **** so it's up to us to say " NO THANKS AND PFO !!"

[whiteguy]

Sorry Mig!

[Mig29]

whiteguy, if you read my comments you will see that is what I said. Gotta read people's posts before you make a statement, otherwise we are spinning in circles every time someone new posts something

My last post was in response to guys who believe that this will be an EXPANSION for AC - which is not true.