Did Jazz just poop the bed?

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Post by Beefitarian »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Tiny Tyke wrote: There is/was a national pilots union. It was called CALPA and now it's called ALPA Canada.
No one has offered membership to me...I don't think this union covers all pilots, do they?
Unions sign contracts with the company. The employees then have to join the union yet another way they have become unpopular. This is due to legislation developed to "help" unions operate. You can join some unions I don't know about ALPA, but they can't have any power to help you with your company without a contract signed by both parties.

Can you guess who spends money contributing to the campaigns of the politicians that make legislation and labour laws, working people that may or maynot belong to a union or wealthy shareholders of corperations like Air Canada.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by Hawkerflyer »

swordfish wrote:
Hawkerflyer wrote:
countryhick wrote:Nice try, next...
Not trying anything, actual facts. I know your a country hick
And you're not...?

Mildly humorous, even so.... :lol:
:lol: I'd love to blame the iPad spell check on that one but you got me. Got to run, me and a bunch of my trailer park friends are headed out to modify the traveling carnivals Scrambler. You ever see one of those things run on a a turbine engine? Maybe I'll see ya there friend!
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by prop2jet »

Can you guess who spends money contributing to the campaigns of the politicians that make legislation and labour laws, working people that may or maynot belong to a union or wealthy shareholders of corperations like Air Canada.
Campaign funding in Canada has changed now... Unions and Corporations alike, can no longer directly contribute funds to a political party. That being said, nothing stops individuals within these groups from doing so.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Certainly, and unions are trying to lobby the government but who has more money, the organisation that gets it's funds from the employees or the employer that pays them? No matter how big any union is the companies will allways be bigger. Don't worry though they'll tell you how it's the unions fault when they're putting the screws to you. Why wouldn't they?

justwork is totally right but the problem is guys need time. The only way to get experience is by working and earning the hours. Here comes the fun part with more pilots than jobs there's allways going to be a bunch of rats that will work for less than you.

Wait until China gets flight training figured out. Pilot's won't be living the life of luxury they're living working for the US regionals right now.
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Post by Beefitarian »

I just noticed something you wrote individules can contribute but the unions and corperations can't. Who's going to contribute starving pilots or wealthy guys that own stock in companies that want to make more money? Like we know they can't save on fuel but if there's room to cut pilot wages they need the laws that allow it and them pesky unions would only get in the way.
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Post by justwork »

Beefitarian wrote:I just noticed something you wrote individules can contribute but the unions and corperations can't. Who's going to contribute starving pilots or wealthy guys that own stock in companies that want to make more money? Like we know they can't save on fuel but if there's room to cut pilot wages they need the laws that allow it and them pesky unions would only get in the way.
Or, here is a totally radical idea... With increased fuel costs why are ticket prices not just higher? Not the "fuel surcharge" some places charge, that makes it sound like someone is actually thinking fuel will be below $70 a barrel again. Fuel goes up, tickets go up. If you hedge fuel good on you, now you can make a little more cash.

Supplementing the cost of tickets with someones wage is wrong, be it a pilot, F/A, or baggage handler. A person shouldn't be able to buy a $100 plane ticket anywhere, they shouldn't be able to buy a $600 ticket anywhere - Not at $110 a barrel at least.
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Post by Beefitarian »

I agree and would rather buy something better even if it costs more. Problem is it's almost like most people think something's wrong with me because of that.

"Why would you pay more?"
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by ScudRunner »

The solution is simple, we all agree that it is supply and demand well cut the supply.

Everyone on here loves to compare our trade to professions like Doctors and Lawyer, I believe the solution should take a few cues from those professions. To become a lawyer you need an undergraduate degree then write the LSAT exam, this exam is only administered a few times a year. If all goes well and you pass the LSAT and have good marks from your undergraduate you can only obtain a law degree from about 20 schools. After that is complete you will article for a year and if the firm likes you well you get called to the bar (not that bar but yes that bar after the call to that bar)

For aviation to advance from a skilled trade to a profession it will require some harsh changes otherwise it will remain the same. First off have an entrance exam like the LSAT only administered twice a year which would allow a student to apply to a flying school. Limit the number of colleges allowed to offer CPL training and limit the number of students. The schools will complain and fight this im sure but if aviation is to change tough medicine is required. Other flying schools that are not selected for CPL/ATPL training would still be allowed to offer PPL RPL IFR ME Floats etc, students for the CPL could be required to show up with a PPL.

Just some thoughts about that.

Back to the original question : did Jazz shit the bed? if anything they know whats coming and are covering their ass by diversifying their income. Jazz will not disappear but will have to fight for every route they have now and that will mean controlling costs. For jazz to compete with others the variable costs will have to be kept in check and we all know what that means.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by North Shore »

. wrote:The solution is simple, we all agree that it is supply and demand well cut the supply.

For aviation to advance from a skilled trade to a profession it will require some harsh changes otherwise it will remain the same. First off have an entrance exam like the LSAT only administered twice a year which would allow a student to apply to a flying school. Limit the number of colleges allowed to offer CPL training and limit the number of students. The schools will complain and fight this im sure but if aviation is to change tough medicine is required. Other flying schools that are not selected for CPL/ATPL training would still be allowed to offer PPL RPL IFR ME Floats etc, students for the CPL could be required to show up with a PPL.
To further the hijack.. One of my first 'real' job in aviation was flying a 185 out of Summer Beaver and Pickle Lake. In both places, many of my customers were aboriginal. In one particular case, I was using sign language and drawing to explain to a customer what I was going to do, and finally had to grab a kid who was walking by to translate. At the same time, there were many young men in the community who were interested in flying - and much more suited to doing so in that environment (connection to the community, knowledge of the local area, customs, language etc..) However, their formal education - the thing that an LSAT-style exam would test - was somewhat limited, at best -thus eliminating them for consideration for a job that they were/are much better suited for..

The suggestion above seems to me to work well in the context of airlines, but not necessarily so for the various niches of aviation in Canada.
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Post by Beefitarian »

CPL could continue to be what it is and perhaps some of the lower level FTUs could offer it. Or what if they create two levels to CPL the current being what it is and the next level requiring more hours and more training perhaps becoming what .. is talking about.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by gtanorth »

Being a pilot is a skilled trade!!!! Don't try and make it what it is not!!!! It is not like being a lawyer nor a doctor, it is no better or worse than either of those or being a bus driver. It is what it is boys - it's a great job but has it's up and downs like any other. Think aviation is hard as an industry - get a grip. :prayer:
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by justwork »

gtanorth wrote: Think aviation is hard as an industry - get a grip. :prayer:
That's the thing, it isn't hard. That's why everyone and his dog has a license, and why there will always be someone ready to jump at the opportunity to pay for their PPC then work for free. The industry isn't hard, it's messed up.

College programs, and flying schools, are the aviation equivalent to puppy mills, CPL's for everyone. Then it's up to the industry to weed out the douche bags. Problem is the industry isn't doing that, they're hiring who ever is cheapest. Go figure, the cheapest are often the worst... Canadian aviation is just about to reach a poop peak.

All of this if course is just my humble opinion.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by Gannet167 »

Who's fault is it? Ours. Pilots work for dirt cheap, and if you don't there is a guy right behind you that will. That's why we need a national union. If Mr. Jones want to take his family across the country for vacation and spend less then $1000 then he better go get on a bus OR load up the vista cruiser and hit the road, plenty of super 8's along the way. He want to fly? Start saving.
How many Mr. Jones fill up airplanes and provide pilots jobs? If all those Jones' decide to fire up the Vista Cruiser, you're going to end up with even fewer people flying, fewer companies operating fewer airplanes, and fewer pilots employed - which would further increase the supply of pilots - and likely drive wages even further down. Super 8 will be doing great though - perhaps the pilots can work the front desk?

If you want every fast food worker to earn a decent wage, you need to sell $50 combos. No one would buy, and no one would be employed. A pilot has a bit more responsibility and training than the high school kid running a deep fryer, but the economics of supply and demand are the same.

I know Safeway's unionized grocery baggers make good coin. That's precisely why I DONT shop there, the prices are so high that I can't afford to. Think of how much business Safeway loses to the others because they've priced themselves out of the market. Think of how many people they don't employ because of this. Mandate that all stock boys make $20 and hour and you'll have a lot of grocery stores out of business and a lot of families at soup kitchens because milk and eggs are now unaffordable.

If you try to regulate the industry - either with ticket price or with the wages of pilots (and thus driving ticket prices up), you will inevitably reduce the consumer demand and shrink the industry - putting more people out of work and/or reducing the employability of new guys. The only practical way to drive wages up (and ticket prices which would have to rise with the cost structure) is to make pilots a rare item. The industry would shrink, but since there'd be fewer pilots, there would still be decent employment options and pay for the (relatively) smaller number of pilots.

How to make the supply smaller is controversial. The regulatory authority likely wont institute any extra requirements to becoming pilot (like, say a master's degree in aerodynamics) because industry (via extremely well paid lobbyists) would cry fowl at how this is increasing their cost structure and hurting Canadian industry.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by ChallengerDan »

Gannet167 wrote:
If you want every fast food worker to earn a decent wage, you need to sell $50 combos. No one would buy, and no one would be employed. A pilot has a bit more responsibility and training than the high school kid running a deep fryer, but the economics of supply and demand are the same.
Amen to that.

If we listen to every pilot that feel they deserve 250k a year, there would be no more industry. Aviation has lost its glamour when it became mainstream and they started selling 750$ all-inclusives to the south. That is also why pilots are not making an insane amount of money anymore.... Economics made it just another job.... Hence why we have some baggage handlers making more than some captains. Economics.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Gannet167 wrote:I know Safeway's unionized grocery baggers make good coin. That's precisely why I DONT shop there, the prices are so high that I can't afford to. Think of how much business Safeway loses to the others because they've priced themselves out of the market. Think of how many people they don't employ because of this. Mandate that all stock boys make $20 and hour and you'll have a lot of grocery stores out of business and a lot of families at soup kitchens because milk and eggs are now unaffordable.
The best part of this is it contradicts the fact that in the mid 1990s Safeway unionised emplyees were the highest paid in that industry because of their union contracts. Also they would have enough staff in the store to open enough check out counters to keep lines down. They took a wage cut of nearly a half. $18 down to $11 and laid off as many full time workers as they could, replacing them with part time people that don't get the same benifits. Often the part time employees work more than 40 hours a week.

Do you know what happened to prices?
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by Gannet167 »

Yep Safeway kept prices high. I believe they are one of the highest priced grocery stores in Canada. But they lost market share, but time.

Don't get me wrong, I would love every worker in Canada to have a great benefit package and be paid a comfortable wage - or like in the case of pilots a great wage because 1. I am one, and 2. They have a lot of training and responsibility behind their job.

But the economics of that don't work. The market economy drives prices and wages. If you force the issue, you end up with an economy like Greece, and everything is bankrupt. Greed is what makes the capitalist wheels turn and it's why most pilots are employed. The retirees, widows and orphans whose pensions and trust funds rely on the stock market thank the boards of directors accordingly for trying so hard to increase share value. That's what Jazz, AC, the LCC's, Safeway, McD's, Toyota etc. all want to achieve - share value. It's the first lesson of business school - increase net present value of the company's stock.

Maybe the airlines' predatory pricing and aggressive expansion plans are ill conceived from a business strategy perspective. But as management, looking for ways to drive up your share price - can you blame them? I get a kick out of people saying that the pilots shouldn't stand for it. Business strategy is the board of directors and the executive management team's prerogative. Not the minions who drive airplanes. Unless the pilots are major shareholders, it's not really within their scope to "allow" the bosses of the company to do anything. It'd be like McDonalds getting into the sub sandwich market, and the french fry machine operators saying "we're not allowing that."
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Post by Beefitarian »

I like how a Union GM worker is the cause for them having to get a bail out loan yet the excecutives that flew to Washington D.C. in private jets to ask for the loan somehow deserve their wages.

Oh right it's because the people that are wealthy, most often because they came out of the correct vagina, run things and you pilots, grocery store employees or whatever are just the drone bees. Get back to work and if you get paid too much you'll "price yourself out of the market."
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by TheSuit »

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it beats the alternatives. Shareholders own the company and ultimately decide how much everyone gets paid; it's their money. There will always be disparity between compensation for the rank-and-file employees and for senior executives due to simple supply and demand. The more people available who are qualified for your position and seeking employment, the less leverage you have over your compensation. Despite that 90% of the population believe themselves brilliant, most are not qualified to make billion dollar decisions or manage a large organization, so shareholders are willing to pay a lot of money to top managers to mind the shop and figure out how to keep things afloat. If shareholders believed they could get away with paying executives zero, they would do it in a heartbeat, executives are employees and expendable just like anyone else.

Everybody cries about greedy shareholders and execs, but at the end of the day, no shareholders then no aircraft, reservation systems or pilots. I can't imagine risking my hard earned (or inherited) money in this ugly sector, so the fact that anyone is willing to risk money here at all instead of in Exxon or Google or Apple is astonishing. And BTW, most of those GM execs were rightly fired.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Not withstanding Westjet. Who has more shares, the guy on the floor in the union or you suits.

I agree with what you said I mearly wish to point out that typically the executives are much more likely to have shares in corperations, the one they work at as well as others. Stocks have change since the turn of the century, GM used to be a dream, if you had shares in them you were set. I'd like to point out that this was during a time when their union was at it's most powerfull. They have more non union employees and contractors now than ever before. I wonder, would you race out to buy their stock if you were looking for a great investment?

I think what I wrote there compares somewhat to AirCanada.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by TheSuit »

Even as shareholders, no executives have free reign over their compensation in a public company (although they have varying degrees of influence on it). Regardless, the people holding the purse strings make the decisions on who gets what. In the white collar world, when you don't like it, you go somewhere else.

GM has had horrific products and has been losing market share since the 1970's, which was right around the time when bombed-out Japan and Europe were finally able to actually compete with them. The Detroit auto companies were never efficient, they were dealt a sweet hand during and after the war and their luck eventually ran out. Unions had nothing to do with it other than making the company unresponsive. Not being able to ask workers to do things in crunch time that aren't outlined on a piece of paper is a huge disadvantage. Their main competitor, Toyota, is built around the ability that workers can rotate through jobs and do whatever work needs to be done. Non-union employees like managers not being allowed to perform simple tasks like moving parts when sh*t hits the fan is just a noose.

AC will never make money without a monumental cultural shift. Commercial aviation is the toughest business there is, period. Huge capital costs in aircraft, huge variable costs in fuel prices, huge personnel costs (having to put up for hotels, per diem, constant training), highly restrictive regulation, completely perishing product (if the seat goes empty, no hope for money) completely at the mercy of the weather, all to produce a product that is too expensive for most people to buy and which they can often live without. Airlines make the slimmest margins of any industry I can think of, wasting time arguing over the last scraps of profit (normally huge losses) instead of trying to make the airline run is just nails in the coffin. When you mentioned it's the executives job to run things and the pilots and grocery clerks are the drone bees, you're right. You're paid to do work.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by scopiton »

Their main competitor, Toyota, is built around the ability that workers can rotate through jobs and do whatever work needs to be done.
toyota is a very interesting business model to study concerning company structure and as you said, employees' task flexibility. No wonder they're in the top 5.
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Post by Beefitarian »

TheSuit wrote:AC will never make money without a monumental cultural shift.
Well, you showed me, I have to go now that I lost.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by fish4life »

I only shop at Safeway because they pay there employee's better and as a result the service is MUCH better, everything is well stocked and the store isn't a disaster inside like your average Wal-mart or superstore. I'd much rather pay the extra $5 on a grocery bill if it means I can easily find what I need, ask any of the many friendly, easy to find staff where something is rather than walking around Wal-mart for 10 minutes trying to find an employee to help me only to find out they are too stunned to have any clue about what your asking them for or where it is.
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by EPR »

I agree with Fish4life, where is the godamned "like" function on this unit?
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Re: Did Jazz just poop the bed?

Post by Gannet167 »

fish4life wrote:I only shop at Safeway because they pay there employee's better and as a result the service is MUCH better, everything is well stocked and the store isn't a disaster inside like your average Wal-mart or superstore. I'd much rather pay the extra $5 on a grocery bill if it means I can easily find what I need, ask any of the many friendly, easy to find staff where something is rather than walking around Wal-mart for 10 minutes trying to find an employee to help me only to find out they are too stunned to have any clue about what your asking them for or where it is.
In the consumer world (especially aviation) you're weird. Price rules. My cousin used to work at a Safeway and found the employees to be the most disgruntled and useless bunch anywhere, despite being over paid. Waly world prizes itself on never running out of stock and being super organized. I know sales reps who used to frequent different retailers and Walmart was always the best in terms of cleanliness, organized stock and having correct inventory. Case studies are done in business schools on Walmart, Toyota, etc. Safeway... not so much. I think if you had to chose which company to invest in, Walmart and Toyota are your good bets. Safeway and GM, historically aren't nearly as good.

Ultimately, the share price of a company demonstrates its financial health and prospects of future profitability. Whether you like Safeway or not, their formula for business success can't hold a candle to Walmart's. It's great that you like their service etc. (although my experience was the opposite) at the end of the day their service can be amazing but if they don't make money it doesn't matter.

I remember as a kid, before Westjet got going, my family buying a plane ticket between Vancouver and Toronto - and back in the late 80's it cost an arm and a leg. Today, that same flight, first class would probably be half (even in 2011's inflation adjusted dollars). There was a reason why the family never visited, it would cost a small fortune to fly anyone. So, we didn't. Today, there's a lot more planes in the sky and prices allow people to travel more affordably. The size of the Canadian population has not really changed much though. The market grew because it became affordable, because of competition. The number of pilots employed also grew.
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