The ultimate glider tow plane and training glider?

[ant_321]

Waldo what pond do you fly out of?

[Skyhunter]

First . while we have had some opposing opinions on some things in the past let me say, as an ex cadet, ex mil pilot and current Bird Dog pilot with a son in cadets I applaud the direction you are taking. I salute you.

Shawn085
"To many air force types that think because they can fly jets they can fly tail dragger. "

They are just a plane and given the training I do believe any ex air force jet pilot would fly them quit well, and I have the background to make that statement! Learning to fly a tail dragger was a challenge for sure but not one that with a little bit of time and practice was that difficult.

The birdog is a notoriously challenging airplane in a crossing and has a reputation for ground looping. Given the number of take offs and landings done by the cadet program it is surprising there is not more of them. One of the icidents you speak of was piloted by crew with well over 500 hours on type. Whether they were a jet pilot or not in the paste is pretty moot at that point.

We would probably all do better and get along better to keep th mil vs civy slams out of this. I know many very good civilian pilots and have respect for where they have come from. Would be nice to see the same back.

Sky

[Waldo Peppar]

ANT_321
Little Rushy Pond, GFW,NL

[Shiny Side Up]

The birdog is a notoriously challenging airplane in a crossing and has a reputation for ground looping. Given the number of take offs and landings done by the cadet program it is surprising there is not more of them.

That's because airplanes don't have reputations for ground looping, pilots do.

[Skyhunter]

Shiny side up,

Disagree, yes pilots can have reputations. But so can inannimate objects. Ford pinto had a rep for blowing up if hit from behind. Some aircraft have characteristics to them that give them a reputation.

[Shiny Side Up]

The ol' fire breathing dragon myth. While its true that machines may have some less than desireable mechanical characteristics, its the meat between the stick and seat that's responsible for them getting into trouble. Airplanes don't ground loop on their own after all.

[Skyhunter]

No they don't ground loop on there own but if you have 10 pilots of same background fly on one type of aircraft for x amount of landings and repeat on another type of aircraft with different landing characteristics. One aircraft will have more of certain type of icidents than the other.

Anyhow I will leave it here in saying that "the old fire breathing dragon" as you like to call it is not a myth. I respect your opinion Shiny just believe it is incorrect and am perfectly ok with thinking mine is wrong.

Btw, have any time in an L-19? Not being accusitory, just curious.

[Cat Driver]

The Super Decathalon is very easy to land and take off, the PA16 needs a lot of attention to directional control on the runway and the Pitts Special needs a lot more attention to directional control on the runway than either of the other two.

Where does the L-19 fit in, in comparison?

[structurespilot]

I tow banners out of 4000' elevation strips, using a C150 STC'd with a lycoming 360 (180 hp) and its a great performer. Some of our billboards are 30' X 90' , but that's basically the max, otherwise temps run to high with the nose up attitude and slow airspeed.

[Shiny Side Up]

No they don't ground loop on there own but if you have 10 pilots of same background fly on one type of aircraft for x amount of landings and repeat on another type of aircraft with different landing characteristics. One aircraft will have more of certain type of icidents than the other.

That doesn't automatically mean that there is something wrong with said aircraft though. Statistically the most crashed aircraft out there is a Cessna 172, though that doesn't mean they're difficult to fly. How often do you find the terms "airplane error" when it comes to accident reports?

Anyhow I will leave it here in saying that "the old fire breathing dragon" as you like to call it is not a myth. I respect your opinion Shiny just believe it is incorrect and am perfectly ok with thinking mine is wrong.

Btw, have any time in an L-19? Not being accusitory, just curious.

For the record I do not have any L-19 time. Is there some characteristic I'm unaware of that makes it more prone to groundlooping? Should Cessna possibly recall the fleet? Keep in mind I've been through litterally thousands of attempts at bad landings by pilots of various experience levels, in almost every plane in Piper, Cessna and Beechcrafts single piston line ups (the L-19 being an exception, though not for lack of trying), and have yet to be able to say at the I have control moment "Wow, that was totally not you trying to roll us into a ball there, totally the airplane, lets try again and hope it doesn't act up on you next time." But then again I've also been told I don't know anything about airplanes since I've never crashed one, So I guess.

I should also say that I don't subscribe to the idea that there are pilots who have crashed airplanes and those who will. Pilots need to take more responsibility for their own abilities.

[Cat Driver]

There are all kinds of thoughts on accidents and loss of control events, and like SSU said the machine is never to blame unless a part fails.

I should also say that I don't subscribe to the idea that there are pilots who have crashed airplanes and those who will. Pilots need to take more responsibility for their own abilities.

Agreed, saying there are those who have xxxx and those who will xxxx an airplane is just plain wrong.

I have way over ten thousand hours of tail wheel time and have yet to ground loop one, so when is my time to do it coming?

[fl80]

I think we're going a little off track here, .'s origianl post was about the ultimate tow plane/training glider and I suspect there's probably a number of great suggestions and possibilities out there. Thanks for considering the cadet movement and how you might be able to help out - it's a good program that has made a difference to a lot of young people and will continue to do just that with the support of many.

As for the L-19, I wasn't going to comment but I'm feeling a lilttle like I need to come to it's defence. There a great little airplane that ought to be treated with respect just like any other airplane. It's far from a "fire breathing dragon". I'm a little short on experience with it having only about 6000 tows under my belt but I'd suggest the following secrets - land into wind, don't touch down with any sideway drift, three-point it or wheel land it as appropriate and consider the wear and tear on the hardware when you're deciding which is most appropriate, don't accept a tailwind landing, use a sideslip to landing to deal with a crosswind, don't load the aircraft with an aft C of G. , don't hesitate to call it a day if you're not comfortable with the conditions, don't be afraid of it (after all it is an airplane and should be fun to fly). Remember, you should be able to look at yourself in the mirror after your last landing!

Just my two bits worth, thanks again ..

fl80

[Cat Driver]

Just my two bits worth,

No it is common sense and fact.

[robertsailor1]

Seems to be the end of that part of the conversation

[Adam Oke]

How much are you willing to spend Cat? I guess if you really want an ultimate tow plane...the Zlin Z-137T does ok. You can get pretty efficient pulling 9 up at once.

[Beefitarian]

A guy could develop some lazy rudder bad habits during take off with that outfit.

[oldncold]

cat , a sgs2-32 is a great glider 2 seats better performance and RUGGED that is what the aircadet needs in a glider the composite stuff is way cool
but the demands of the intense summer scholarship program are tough on equipment. the alum structure is good and sturdy . parts are still available .

as for a tow plane the bellanca scout is a good aircraft especially newer with the metal spars. I have also heard some postive things about a maule with a big engine though no first hand exp .


My suggestion is to get in contact with the pac -region gliding program and sit down with them and come up with a mutally beneficial legacy program . don't turn every thing over with a cart blanche' .Ensure that it goes directly to the kids in form of a flying scholarship or gliding etc. in 20-40 yrs all of us hope your around cat av can is not the same with out you . then it can be the 'cat driver' memorial scholarship for the pacific region given to to the air cadet that show the the most persistance in the face of adversity (as an example)


From exp the cadets were the one thing that kept me on the right path as the opportunity to go every week and do things that like minded cadets were doing was invaluable . as I type this I am looking at my little trophy from 33yrs ago winning the national drill championship for air cadets . time flys when yur having fun and it has been overall a heck of a ride. lots of up n downs but a heck of a ride. fly safe and best of health to you