U.N. votes on Palestinian Statehood

[Expat]

How can anyone have an objective view of a conflict, without knowing the two sides. In the case of this discussion, most people know everything about Israel, because the country sells itself well in the media. But who knows anything about the Palestinians? And if you don't, you are justifiably not qualified to speak.

[photofly]

I need to refute a few statements that were made as facts and are simply untrue.

And truth is, many religious Jews and all Zionists believe in the old testament only

Actually all Jews believe in the Old Testament only, more or less by definition. To the extent of not even using the words "Old Testament" which would imply the existence of a New Testament.

Whether you're a Zionist or not is not related to your religious orientation.

In the old testament , we have promises given to the Tribe of Judah

No we don't. There are promises given to Abraham, and to "the children of Israel" a.k.a. the Jews. Perhaps you're confusing the Tribe of Judah being the descendents of Judah (one of Jacob's sons) and one of 12 tribes - with the Nation-state of Judah, one of two historical Jewish states that coexisted in the late biblical period some 1000 years after Jacob (There were two Jewish States, Israel, and Judah, with different territories and different leaderships. But that's a long time after the Abrahamic period.

The Zionists still cling to those old promises no matter how many times they reject the saviour of the new testament.

You're mixing Zionism and Judaism. Jews don't consider themselves to reject the saviour of the new testament because they don't acknowlege the existence of such a testament or any such saviour in order to reject it - or him.

As for Zionists, they come in lots of different flavours. Religious Zionists, secular political Zionists, and others. Zionism (regardless of what you say) is nothing more or less than the belief that the Jewish People have the right to have a homeland in Israel. Some people who believe that base it in religious terms, but by no means all.

According to zionist belief , the land of Jerusulem and area is for them ONLY and Promised to them ONLY.

The most right-wing religious believe that. But may Zionists don't. Most Zionists would say that Jerusalem was founded as a Jewish city and is the rightful capital of the Jewish state. Secular Zionists wouldn't refer to any such "promises" and most Zionists wouldn't claim the area is ONLY for them.

According to Zionist belief, the jews are a "special peoples" REGARDLESS of how they treat others and their own crimes/sins.

No, again. You're mixing Zionism and Judaism, and misunderstanding both. In Jewish tradition, the Jews are chosen by God to have special responsibilities and duties and are required to uphold higher standards than other people - to be a "light among the nations". They also consider themselves to be judged to higher standards. In piloting terms, it's a bit like saying "I'll accept average landings from you, but when I fly, I think I should have to do it better."

and AND also according to their beliefs, the "nations" are "Goyim" or DOGS.

Goyim doesn't mean dogs. Goyim means "nations" and refers to nations other than the People of Israel. The hebrew word for dogs is Kelevim.

There are also 2 sets of laws , one for the jews and one for dealing with the "dogs"

I think we've dealt with the dogs issue. There are not two sets of laws.

NOW, do yall understand HOW a perverted mind thinks it can do evil and expect blessings from their creator and a land that WAS promised to them ???

Frankly, I have no idea what generated this.

[Beefitarian]

So a person can't be related to their mother's family if they look too much like their father's family? Ok.

[crazy_aviator]

Photofly, to answer your refutations,
1 Some jews are messianic jews who believe in the old and new testament .
2 Promises were given to Abraham and his descendants also to ALL the 12 tribes individually and also to the house of Israel AND the house of Judah. As you say, the children of Israel AKA the Jews,,,NOT so , the children of Israel are 12 tribes of which 1 tribe is Judah or the jews
3 there is one jewish state IMPROPERLY called Israel BECAUSE the lost 10 tribes that went towards assyria were given the name Israel and the 2 ish tribes that remained around jerusulem were judah, a part of benjamin and others who stayed behind.
4 The jews of the day did INDEED reject the saviour when they had him hung on a stake !! They paid a dear penalty ever since for their lack of repentance!
5 Your correct Goy or goyim means nation or gentile however by implication it does mean NON-jews and cattle or dogs in the eyes of jews!
6 A jew will deal one way with another jew and differently with a Goy simple as that !!
7 In general , Zionists and religious zealots of the Jewish variety believe in the God given right to inhabit and control Jerusulem and surroundings ACCORDING to their take on the Old testament and their oral and other teachings.

As a note, Most north americans are indeed descendants of the 12 tribes and are therefore brothers of Judah , so im not here to hate my brother but rather to shed some light and truth that would help a brother. !

[photofly]

The jews of the day did INDEED reject the saviour when they had him hung on a stake !!

Even if one were to accept this...

They paid a dear penalty ever since for their lack of repentance!

Given that any Jews alive today were born nearly two thousand years since the death of Jesus - wouldn't that be an example of the collective punishment which you said was a Western concept and one in which you didn't believe?

[robertsailor1]

Wow....lets not get so excited about a bunch of passages written by a group of goat herders. A bunch of this stuff was plagiarized from as far back as the Egyptians. We've had over 3000 Gods since man kind started counting and even the Jews had more than one. We are all atheists, some of you just don't believe in 2999 of the Gods that's all.

[System Message]

Given the tiny size of Israel including the disputed territories this is about as important as far as world news goes as two cattle ranchers arguing over whos turn it is to fix the fence. Israel has 897,600' of Mediterranean coastline, and if the Saracens forced every Zionist into the sea there would be 6.2 Jews per foot of coastline.

[Beefitarian]

Like I pointed out a bunch of them are girls and dudes in funny hats. How hard could it be? Man up palestine, I read arabs are the best fighter pilots.

[grimey]

Where is the oldest synagogue in the world? In an Arab country of course, built in the 16th century by Jews who were expelled by the Catholic Inquisition (Spain and Portugal remaining Judenfree for the next 450 years).

Do you check you facts before you spout this shit?

Dubrovnik is far older, as is the oldest synagogue in Prague. But why let facts get in the way of your sense of Arab superiority.

[Spokes]

Wow....lets not get so excited about a bunch of passages written by a group of goat herders. A bunch of this stuff was plagiarized from as far back as the Egyptians. We've had over 3000 Gods since man kind started counting and even the Jews had more than one. We are all atheists, some of you just don't believe in 2999 of the Gods that's all.

Bingo!

[JakeYYZ]

I hope you really enjoyed your little "Palestine vote" stunt this week, Mr. Abbas.
It comes with a price tag:

United States Congress has blocked nearly $200 million in aid for the Palestinian Authority, threatening projects such as food aid, health care, and support for efforts to build a state, The Independent reported Saturday.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 75,00.html

Still think it's a sensible idea to bite the hand that feeds you?

[Expat]

200 millions is petty cash.
A lot of coutries are more than willing to make it up.

[azimuthaviation]

It comes with a price tag

Interesting choice of words. Thats what the settlers call their actions in response to anti-settler actions by the government, mainly vandalism and violence against Palestinians. Basically a kristalnacht every other week but instead of money lending and jewellery shops the targets are the olive trees, the symbol of Palestine planted 1000 years ago that by uprooting they think they can uproot the people and history as well.

The acts of random violence are part of a clear pattern and can be predicted. They generally follow actions by Israeli authorities that are perceived as harming the settlement enterprise, or follow Palestinian violence against settlers. "Price tag" acts include demonstrations, blocking of roads, clashes with Israeli security forces and even attacks against Israeli security forces personnel. Usually, however, the term refers to carried out by radical right-winged Israeli activists against Palestinians and their property. These include throwing stones at Palestinian cars, the torching of Palestinian fields and orchards, as well as the destruction and uprooting of trees belonging to Palestinians.

Towards the end of 2009, following an Israeli government decision to freeze any Israeli construction in the West Bank for a period of 10 months, several suspicious attacks were carried out in the West Bank, including the suspected arson of a mosque in the Palestinian town of Yasuf, during which graffiti was sprayed on a building saying "Prepare for the price tag". The Israeli security establishment estimated that the price tag policy is implemented by between several hundreds to about 3,000 people who usually carry out the attacks as individuals or in small groups

Although hundreds of attacks have occured, no arrests have been made.

[JakeYYZ]

That’s one installment of a total 600m aid package.
600m is petty cash; then it won't be missed.

[North Shore]

Wow....lets not get so excited about a bunch of passages written by a group of goat herders. A bunch of this stuff was plagiarized from as far back as the Egyptians. We've had over 3000 Gods since man kind started counting and even the Jews had more than one. We are all atheists, some of you just don't believe in 2999 of the Gods that's all.

Someone been reading Reacher?

[azimuthaviation]

That’s one installment of a total 600m aid package.
600m is petty cash; then it won't be missed.

It wont be missed at all as Arab nations, Saudi Arabia in particular, have agreed to pick up the bill. The only losses of that 200 million was USA's position as a fair broker as well as any influence positive or negative they could have gained with that aid. It think both are good things as it shows Americas true colors.

And the ironic thing is that 200 million dollars that Saudi is putting up, came from America anyways.

[photofly]

That is indeed a generous offer from the Saudis.

GIven this level of goodwill towards the Palestinians from Saudi, from other Arab nations, and from the Islamic world as a whole - why is is that the EU and the US have historically been (and remain, by a wide margin) the biggest donors to the Palestinian cause?

[azimuthaviation]

EU and the US have historically been (and remain, by a wide margin) the biggest donors to the cause of Palestinian problems.

How about the settlers go back to the US and EU and they keep their money? sound fair?

[photofly]

Does your generous offer include the "settlers" that live in Tel Aviv, West Jerusalem, Netanya, Rehovot, Hertzliya, and Eilat?

[azimuthaviation]

Every last one

[photofly]

There's not much of an incentive for anyone to take you up on that, is there! The Arabs lost the wars of 1948, 1967 and 1973 - and you're demanding another go?

[azimuthaviation]

No the Israelis are arrogant after their victories in the aformentioned battles and now have the opinion that they have nothing to gain from a peace treaty and nothing to lose from war. Theyve made the situation an all or nothing game, an extremist game with no space for compromise. Right now its working for them, but it wont always. Israels enemies are forced to play by her rules, but that doesnt mean theyll never win.

[azimuthaviation]

When France gave up Algeria a million French went back to France and Algeria was Arab again. When Italy gave up Libya 250 000 Italians went home. The Europeans thought they couldmake their new homes on the other side of the mediterranean sea by the millions but in 2 out of three they did the right thing and turned home. The Zionists are a much more tenacious foe however and I dont blame them for not wanting to go home after what happened there. But that problem should not be visited on our shores. A boatlod of Jewish refugees by the thousands came to Canada and Canada sent them back to the death camps. So why does palestine have to accept them when you wont? Europe wasnt bad for them when they wanted to come to Canada but it is when they come to palestine??

[Beefitarian]

How about the settlers go back to the US and EU and they keep their money? sound fair?

Sure, set it up.

[grimey]

No the Israelis are arrogant after their victories in the aformentioned battles and now have the opinion that they have nothing to gain from a peace treaty and nothing to lose from war. Theyve made the situation an all or nothing game, an extremist game with no space for compromise. Right now its working for them, but it wont always. Israels enemies are forced to play by her rules, but that doesnt mean theyll never win.

You think Israelis feel there is nothing to lose from war? Which Israelis have you spoken to? They live in a country that's 20 miles wide pressed against the sea, which could be overrun by a well-coordinated attack.