Training agreement after the training?

[Northern Flyer]

Another thought, If I were an employer I would not want to force a pilot to stay working for me if they were truly unhappy. The equivalent of that 10,000 dollar training bond could be burn't in a week just on extra fuel flying at lower altitudes.

Treat your employee's properly and with respect and the good ones will stick around, the one's that leave well maybe you are better off without them.

[Doc]

Another thought, If I were an employer I would not want to force a pilot to stay working for me if they were truly unhappy. The equivalent of that 10,000 dollar training bond could be burn't in a week just on extra fuel flying at lower altitudes.

Treat your employee's properly and with respect and the good ones will stick around, the one's that leave well maybe you are better off without them.

How very true....well put.

[godsrcrazy]

Another thought, If I were an employer I would not want to force a pilot to stay working for me if they were truly unhappy. The equivalent of that 10,000 dollar training bond could be burn't in a week just on extra fuel flying at lower altitudes.

Treat your employee's properly and with respect and the good ones will stick around, the one's that leave well maybe you are better off without them.

There are companies out there with Bonds that do treat their employees well. You can treat someone people better then any other company they will ever work for. But when they are flying in the middle of no were and some company closer to home in a big city calls and offers you less people do leave. The fact is no one wanted you until you got some experience and a PPC paid for by others.

Personally if you are truly planning on staying and knew there was a bond before you took the training then whats the problem sign the dam thing. I think it only shows you are a person of your word and you won't hide behind some technicality. If i was the chief pilot and you didn't sign after the training was done you would be back to pushing planes not flying them. I would spend the money to train and move the next guy up and let him fly. Then lets see who wants to hire you with a PPC and no hours.

[Doc]

If i was the chief pilot and you didn't sign after the training was done you would be back to pushing planes not flying them. I would spend the money to train and move the next guy up and let him fly. Then lets see who wants to hire you with a PPC and no hours.

[/quote]

Okay, lets see if I have this straight? You have already paid for this pilot's training. He wont sign a bond after the fact. Keep in mind, you never asked him to sign a bond till AFTER he was trained. You'd put a trained pilot (on your dime BTW) back on the ramp, and buy another "sheep" a PPC who would sign a bond. So, you're out of pocket the cost of TWO PPC's, and you have ONE pilot. To make a point? Is that about it? You'd do this even though your have no reason to believe either pilot will leave you? With or without a bond? If this is the case, you're an idiot!

This is the exact mentality demonstrated by so many, that make this whole industry SUCK!

[godsrcrazy]

If i was the chief pilot and you didn't sign after the training was done you would be back to pushing planes not flying them. I would spend the money to train and move the next guy up and let him fly. Then lets see who wants to hire you with a PPC and no hours.

Okay, lets see if I have this straight? You have already paid for this pilot's training. He wont sign a bond after the fact. Keep in mind, you never asked him to sign a bond till AFTER he was trained. You'd put a trained pilot (on your dime BTW) back on the ramp, and buy another "sheep" a PPC who would sign a bond. So, you're out of pocket the cost of TWO PPC's, and you have ONE pilot. To make a point? Is that about it? You'd do this even though your have no reason to believe either pilot will leave you? With or without a bond? If this is the case, you're an idiot!

This is the exact mentality demonstrated by so many, that make this whole industry SUCK![/quote]


Is it my mentality our yours you talk about.
PT6lover said right from the start although he was not made to sign he knew there were bonds to be signed. So if he knew then whats the issue. Yes i would spend the money on another pilot. For the simple fact if this guy doesn't want to sign then he has something to hide in my opinion. Oh sorry maybe i am wrong he is a pilot and his word is as good as money in the bank.

DOC the fact that when someone doesn't agree with your position you get into school yard name calling really does show your true colours so maybe you should look in the mirror when you start the name calling. I think this Form is called AvCanada not ask DOC.
Carry on

[loopa]

Look at it this way,

If they fire you over not signing the contract you probably don't want to work for them in the first place; they must be hiding something - just like how they hid this contract in your interview. Stick with your assets such as you say you're not going anywhere, obviously you have a brain and ability to fly their aircraft since you have successfully completed their training, and perhaps suggest them to offer you with a piece of paper where both you and the employer agrees on some terms of employment, such as you attesting to the fact to stay there for x amount of time given that the employer gives you a) good environment b) open door policy c) etc... get creative. Because what if you get hired and then for some unjust reason (which companies are really good at creating), you're let go. Now what? Do you owe the money? Just be up front how you feel that's not fair.

Other than that don't sign anything for a company that surprises you with a legal approach like an agreement that was never even talked about.

[ea306]

Asking to sign a training bond after the fact is kind of like closing the barn door after the horse has left. Might just as well leave it open and perhaps the good horse will stick around.

Yes there are good companies that treat their pilots well. And yes there are people who do not live up to their commitments or their words. Often times too, well intentioned people will have changes of circumstances which will compel them to leave. I do not like bonds or contracts, however I have signed a couple in my career...but these were explained during interview and were signed when I signed an employment agreement at the very beginning. Last one asked for a 24 month commitment.... Was there for over 60 months.

I do agree with your Statement Godsrcrazy when you say if you are planning on staying why not sign the damn thing.... But only when hired. Once hired and on the payroll and trained, it is too late for the company to be demanding a training bond or contract.

Your idea of punishing for not signing does not align with the management style that most would consider a great working environment. As Doc succinctly put it, you are self afflicting financial cost to the company by having to pay twice for one pilot. Not a good business move that is for sure.

Creating an unpleasant working environment will just expedite the turn over of your staff.

In this instance, management has to learn to adjust their HR practices and place the training contract before the new hire prior to commencing employment. No point in flogging the horse.....
If management wishes to have a lower turn over, treat your people fairly. Recognize that all airlines have turn over. Recognize too that some airlines by nature of the work they do are often a means to an end and are progressive stepping stones on a pilots career path.

[godsrcrazy]

ea306 i agree with what you are saying however.
1. We have no idea who this company is and how they treat their employees unless i missed something here.
2. Maybe some new HR person forgot to mention the training bond. So hopefully PT6lover remembers to do every briefing etc with perfection so nobody can come back and say i am going to sue your ass off because you didn't tell me not to do something.
3. As mentioned before PT6lover said at the start he heard there was training bonds. So why didn't he ask HR about it during the interview process. Obviously if he knew at the start whats the issue.

Again i say if you are truly planning on keeping your word and staying then whats the big deal sign it. Again in MY opinion if he does not sign he gives the impression as soon as i can i am out of here. This could be for working conditions or the company he is working for is just a stepping stone for the company he really wants to work for when he gets some experience.

In todays world of Human rights, Labour standards, Transport Canada if you really want to leave for legitimate reason i doubt any training bond will hold in a court of law.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

Am I the only one that finds the humour in the fact that companies that demand training bonds are generally pretty quick to poach a fresh PPC from someone else?

I bailed on the flying side in the early 90's. I didn't like how the industry treated its resources then and see little has changed (perhaps gotten worse). Of course a company has an expectation to recover their investment. The best way to accomplish this is by being an honourable employer. They are investing in you as a pilot and employee. If they have sound hiring practices then their investment should be relatively safe. If they are the type of employer that only attracts transient type employees they may have more to worry about.

[godsrcrazy]

Am I the only one that finds the humour in the fact that companies that demand training bonds are generally pretty quick to poach a fresh PPC from someone else?

I bailed on the flying side in the early 90's. I didn't like how the industry treated its resources then and see little has changed (perhaps gotten worse). Of course a company has an expectation to recover their investment. The best way to accomplish this is by being an honourable employer. They are investing in you as a pilot and employee. If they have sound hiring practices then their investment should be relatively safe. If they are the type of employer that only attracts transient type employees they may have more to worry about.

Lets not forger Your investment is only as safe as the morals of the person you invest in.
There Really is one simple solution that pi$$'s a lot of people off on this forum. Its called non-transferable PPC. This would get rid of most bonds i believe and if you want to poach someone at minimum you still have to invest in the re-current training cost. Speaking of which with all the SMS it amazes me that people don't have to totally retrain to insure their employess meet all their company requirements.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Really TPC, not a case of integrity? The guy hires on with a company he knows requires a bond, skirts around the oversight of being asked to sign an upgrade agreement he knows is standard practice, and then comes here posing as someone trying to take a stand for the betterment of all?

If that's how you define integrity then I feel sorry for you.

I never said that. Please read my posts with a little more dilligence...
Signing something after the fact is pointless. It is what it is at that point.

Then again, I've never screwed any of my employers in the past nor will I in the future... But yeah, I guess you can feel sorry for me since I lack integrity... Right....