Skeptic Confirms GW Real, Arctic Melt Accels, SRM Testing

[cgzro]

Don't be so naive. If industry and government were really behind it and committed we would have gotten off fossil fuels a long time ago and you know it. Or at least you would if you gave it a second's thought.

I have not seen any scientific evidence that what you say is true. The best opportunity was Nuclear but I believe there was strong opposition to prevent it. At best we could get off coal with Nuclear but currently there is no replacement for the power density of oil for our transportation and heating needs.

[Rockie]

Of course they've dabbled in other technologies, but do you really think if California and other places hadn't imposed strict emission laws engines would be any cleaner than they were 50 years ago? Do you really think electric cars would be as advanced if the price of gas hadn't gone up so much, or MUCH more advanced if governments would drop the hammer and made it mandatory?

It's political will and the regulations that go with it that's driving our energy technology. Denying that is not worthy of your intelligence or anybody else's.

[robertsailor1]

Denying that is not worthy of your intelligence or anybody else's.[/quote]

Sounds just a bit elitist to me Rockie.

Politicians can only go so far and so fast before they get voted out by people that want to keep their jobs no matter how much "political will" they have. Ralph Klein put it best when he said "good politicians look for a parade and then get out in front of it" Right now the parade is not big enough. I'm not disagreeing with your ideas but your right on the price issue. When fuel prices get to the point that other technologies have a chance to compete then you'll see a big push on alternatives.

[Rockie]

Sounds just a bit elitist to me Rockie. Politicians can only go so far and so fast before they get voted out by people that want to keep their jobs no matter how much "political will" they have. Ralph Klein put it best when he said "good politicians look for a parade and then get out in front of it" Right now the parade is not big enough. I'm not disagreeing with your ideas but your right on the price issue. When fuel prices get to the point that other technologies have a chance to compete then you'll see a big push on alternatives.

Pardon me for giving credit for intelligence where you may not think it's due.

Where do you think political will comes from anyway? A can?

Scientists spend a lot of time telling people their findings to educate them and hopefully convince governments to do something about it. That's essentially why I spend so much time talking about it. Do I think governments will do anything about this without the populace insisting on it? What do you think? Read back just a little bit and try and glean some of the context of what I've been saying all along.

[robertsailor1]

Actually its much more complex than simply coming up with ideas, even really good ones, in a can, LOL. Money makes the world go around and no politician has the power to make policy that is not supported by really big business, there always has to be something in it for them. Its a delicate game trying to find common ground and still get your policies in force.

[mcrit]

If industry and government were really behind it and committed we would have gotten off fossil fuels a long time ago and you know it.

I don't know that. Could you give me a concrete example of how government or industry have supressed a stunning technological breakthrough? Show me the "Rearden metal".

Just for the record: I agree that we need to get off of fossil fuels and that they are a major source of global warming. I'm just giving you the run around on these points because you clearly don't have the grounding in science to be so obstinate with your opinions.

[Rockie]

Of course big business drives government policy which is why we don't have viable alternatives to fossil fuels today. It's why if anything is going to change in global warming policies, or any policies for that matter it has to come from the population demanding governments govern for the benefit of the people, not big oil/banks etc.

If you managed to connect those dots it's not far from there to understanding occupy wall street.

If there is a looming inescapable problem, do you want the government to deal with it before it becomes a crisis or are you content to sit back doing nothing? I know what it looks like from here.

[Rockie]

If industry and government were really behind it and committed we would have gotten off fossil fuels a long time ago and you know it.

I don't know that. Could you give me a concrete example of how government or industry have supressed a stunning technological breakthrough? Show me the "Rearden metal".

Just for the record: I agree that we need to get off of fossil fuels and that they are a major source of global warming. I'm just giving you the run around on these points because you clearly don't have the grounding in science to be so obstinate with your opinions.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Do you believe a country capable of going from nothing in 1960 to putting men on the moon by 1969 couldn't build electric cars before now? They built one to drive on the moon for crying out loud. They designed the SR71 in the 1950's. They learned how to build nuclear weapons. They designed the space shuttle in the 1970's. They concieved and built the GPS system and topographically mapped the entire earth's surface for use in cruise missiles.

A viable alternative to oil driven cars? Pfffft... Child's play if they really wanted to do it.

I'm not a scientist and am the first to admit it (incidentally that's why I don't argue with scientists when they say we're in deep trouble from global warming unlike many others), but I'm not stupid or gullible either.

[mcrit]

Rockie, give me a concrete example. I did train in the sciences, and as such I judge the ultimate validity of any assertion on empirical evidence. In essence I am giving you the chance to make me a convert.

I'm not a scientist and am the first to admit it

Sadly, the devil is in the details. The details in this case are science. If you should like, I could go over some of the gross details about why practical electric cars are difficult to build and in the long run, won't save us all that much in green house gasses.

[Rockie]

Scientist find ways to do things, not make up excuses why they can't. BTW you aren't a scientist either.

[robertsailor1]

I'm not a scientist either but I have run my own business for many years and have known dozens of politicians by their first name so I do know how they operate and its naive to think that they operate on good ideas. These next 10 years or so are going to be tough ones financially for most countries and jobs are going to be number one, not green house gasses. Until we can get the unemployment rate down Joe Public won't give a damn about anything other than making his house payments. Hopefully when things stabilize a bit in the worlds economies we can move on to more important stuff but don't hold your breath as we have lots of less than good financial news yet to come.

[Rockie]

Read some on the geopolitical, economic and humanitarian consequences of not doing anything, it'll make our current woes seem like happy days. But you're absolutely right that politicians have very short horizons. Our current crop of idiots are wetting their pants in anticipation of arctic resource exploitation thanks to disappearing ice and won't do anything about the threat until it's far too late...if ever.

Unless we make them.

In that I'm not holding my breath because our horizons are sadly as short as the politicians.

[robertsailor1]

Well I'm running out of steam in this debate because I'm starting to agree with some of your last comments. That being said none of us can predict the future, maybe we'll both be surprised, hope so.

[mcrit]

Scientist find ways to do things, not make up excuses why they can't.

Couple of points here Rockie. 1.) That is a vague opinion, not a concrete example of how industry is supressing research. 2.) It is wrong. Scientists do pure research. They find out things for the sake of finding the knowledge. Engineers find ways to do things. Again, the devil is in the details. Once again I offer you the chance to convert me. Give me a concrete example of how industry and government have supressed some great new invention.

BTW you aren't a scientist either.

Good point. I don't have a PhD in chemistry, merely and HBSc in it. I only did a one year research project in miniaturization of AA, AE and mass spectrometers, not the five years or so of study required to get a PhD. I did not run my own lab, but merely worked as an assistant in one for a few years before I changed course to become a chemistry and physics teacher (both at the high school level and eventually as a teacher educator at the faculty of education). I have only followed the development of fuel cells and battery technology in the technical literature; I have not participated in that development. So, you are right. I am a long way from being one of the high priests, but I'm a lot closer to the altar than you've ever been.

Now, here is a challenge for you Rockie. Can you reply with something of substance and without being snide?

[Expat]

You may never find any w...leaks on this, but research centers, be they at universities, or private, are routinely told to drop it.
You probably need to have the PHD, and be the boss, to know it, but it happens. Your boss calls you late at night, and just says drop it. Simple, effective!
I have some PHD friends...

[mcrit]

You may never find any w...leaks on this, but research centers, be they at universities, or private, are routinely told to drop it.
You probably need to have the PHD, and be the boss, to know it, but it happens. Your boss calls you late at night, and just says drop it. Simple, effective!
I have some PHD friends...

Fair enough. I don't question or doubt that your friends have passed on stories about this taking place. However, who can say why the direction was given? I'm sure that every researcher thinks that his project is the latest and greatest (otherwise he wouldn't waste his time on it). It may, however look like a dog to the fellow holding the purse strings, and thus gets cut. Granted, it could very well be due to pressure from some secret governement/industry/oil cabal, but I doubt it given the number of private companies that a dong research into wind power and fuel cells.

[Rockie]

Once again I offer you the chance to convert me. Give me a concrete example of how industry and government have supressed some great new invention.

Avro Arrow.

However if that's not enough and you insist on something a little closer to the subject check this out:

http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/in-the- ... llery.html

Nothing can be proven however, but you don't need a PHD or even a honours science degree to figure out that powerful industrial players use their influence with government to protect their interests. Believing otherwise is beyond naive...science degree or not.

[robertsailor1]

There will always be conspiracy theories and maybe this is just one more example but having said that Rockie is right about the extent that companies will go to protect their self interests.

[mcrit]

http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/in-the- ... llery.html

Nothing can be proven however, but you don't need a PHD or even a honours science degree to figure out that powerful industrial players use their influence with government to protect their interests. Believing otherwise is beyond naive...science degree or not.

I'll see your internet tv website and raise you:

http://www.google.ca/search?q=fuel+cell ... 0gGDjPHpDQ
http://www.google.ca/search?q=wind+turb ... 0gHO2u3BDQ

Despite what the CBC says, being over budget had more to do with the death of the Arrow than any secret cabal.

[Rockie]

Admittedly many of the stalled inventions in the link I provided are, well.....a little hard to believe. But the Lupo did exist and electric motor technology and truly fuel efficient engines have been around for some time. Following the great US auto maker meltdown a few years ago there was a BIG push by the manufacturers for hybrids, electric cars and fuel efficient gas powered cars. How admirably responsible. Now that things are kinda back to normal again that's all but disappeared and we're back to big trucks that can haul an ocean liner out of the water without breaking a sweat.

Just ask Dennis Leary.

[Rockie]

Despite what the CBC says, being over budget had more to do with the death of the Arrow than any secret cabal.

Sure it did. That's why they had to destroy all the machines and as much documentation as they could on the entire project.

[Shiny Side Up]

There will always be conspiracy theories and maybe this is just one more example but having said that Rockie is right about the extent that companies will go to protect their self interests.

Indeed. Interesting reading here about the beginnings of electric power distribution. Much like how the inferior technology of VHS won out over that of Beta back in the day. I suspect that this trend continues often when it comes to the manufacture and distribution of technology.

[robertsailor1]

For sure..the Robertson screw was invented in Canada a hundred years ago but has only seen wide distribution recently. Henry Ford met with Robertson and offered to use the screw in his first cars but wanted a sizable piece of Robertson's company which was turned down. Lots and lots of examples over the years of inferior products winning the day because of other motivations.

[mcrit]

Despite what the CBC says, being over budget had more to do with the death of the Arrow than any secret cabal.

Sure it did. That's why they had to destroy all the machines and as much documentation as they could on the entire project.

Oops, my mistake. Here I was thinking that it might have something to do with the world being in the middle of the cold war and the west not wanting to see any of that stuff fall into the hands of the Russians.
I still see no proof of this coven of industrialists that you insist are holding back alternate energy development. I do however see quite a number of companies doing research into fuel cells, wind power and improved battery technology. Some of these companies are even making a profit.

For sure..the Robertson screw was invented in Canada a hundred years ago but has only seen wide distribution recently. Henry Ford met with Robertson and offered to use the screw in his first cars but wanted a sizable piece of Robertson's company which was turned down. Lots and lots of examples over the years of inferior products winning the day because of other motivations.

Hi RS. You have a good point that the Robertson is a better product than the Philips, and that it has had limited use up until recently. However, I submit that this was not due to an organized effort to suppress a new invention. From what I remember reading about this, Henry Ford insisted on having a great degree of control over every aspect of his production. In line with this principle Ford wanted a license to produce his own Roberston screws (thus giving him control over his own supply of them). Robertson was unwilling to cede that license because he had been burned quite badly when he consented to a similar deal in Europe. The cause of the situation was a conflict of personalities; not a deliberate attempt to kill a new invention.

[robertsailor1]

I'm sure thats the case, it was just an example of a better product being held back for reasons other than conspiracies. Sounds like your homework was/is much better than my memory..Cheers