ACPA off to arbitration

[Brick Head]

This is a game of horse shoes. Closest to TA1 wins. If someone throws TA1 on the table the arb is done. It is simply the jurisprudence and there really is no other logical outcome since binding arbitration was imposed on the parties.

Because this is FOS the further ACPA strays in one direction from TA1 it allows AC to stray in the other just as far.

The reciprocal is true as well. The closer ACPA moves toward TA1 the less straying AC can do.

The breakdown in negotiations likely indicates ACPA was still trying to negotiate something not in stride with the concepts in TA1. If ACPA stays that course AC May very well get an opportunity to gut their CBA.

My instinct tells me that was the last attempt at ignoring the realities of having a previous MOA.

Its now official (Via road show) ACPA will abandon trying to run from the realities of having a previous MOA.

The game of horse shoes is on. TA1 minus a couple of mutually agree items is the benchmark.

For you scope crazies that would be 2 705's for every aircraft added at AC.

[hithere]

So what are you saying- that in TA1 there was a provision for 2 RJ705 to be added to the Express fleet for every additional aircraft at mainline and that provision will be maintained in ACPA's final offer or will be modified in ACPA's final offer?

[Brick Head]

No one will have specific information. This is FOS. Either side would be nuts to let the other see their cards.

What i can say is i heard the same today. Arbitrators will not stray from the jurisprudence. The jurisprudence for interest based arbitration, for which FOS is, is to impose a MOA if one exists.

In the case of FOS? Closest to it.

TA1 had 705's to Jazz only. No one else. On a two for one basis.

Both parties will need to be close to be competitive.

With that said an injunction will be launched at the opportune time and c33 will continue to be fought in court irrespective of FOS.

This is just my personal opinion. But I think this is what the corporation has been waiting for. We may see actual negotiations now.

[rudder]

TA1 contained several quids. Many were based on an LCC operation at AC. If the LCC initiative is dead from a company point of view, then watch for AC to distance itself from TA1.

p.s. I do not see negotiations beginning. They are over unless it is simply to accede to all of CR's demands. ACPA had 10 days to do that. Now ACPA believe that TA1 is a fait accompli. I guess that we will all find out in 90 days or less.

[Brick Head]

Rudder,

Go back and read the CUPE arbitration again. The jurisprudence applies both ways. Any party deviates from TA1 and they risk loosing.

The only exception are items both sides have mutually agreed are unacceptable within TA1 or items settled outside FOS.

Scope is in neither camp

[Fanblade]

TA1 contained several quids. Many were based on an LCC operation at AC. If the LCC initiative is dead from a company point of view, then watch for AC to distance itself from TA1.

Rudder,

The Corp is still pushing LCC.

What you call quid others here would call a sell out. Much of the quid can easily be described as wealth transfer up the list. If the quid goes? Good. I will leave it there because it will go red/blue on me if I don't. But yes I understand the point with respect to negotiations. The dollar value of FOS will very closely resemble TA1.

p.s. I do not see negotiations beginning. They are over unless it is simply to accede to all of CR's demands. ACPA had 10 days to do that.

I don't know about that actually. Brickhead has a point albeit speculative. If I were the company I also would have refused to negotiate with ACPA unless they began to negotiate around the concepts of TA1. Cost neutral. Raises through productivity. Less training. Pension. I would have done so because I know arbitration will just give it to me anyway. Why negotiate for less?

Now that ACPA will move in the direction of TA1 with FOS. I don't think one more attempt while waiting for the ruling is out of the question. In fact it makes sense. The two sides have not as of yet negotiated from the TA1 concepts.

Now ACPA believe that TA1 is a fait accompli. I guess that we will all find out in 90 days or less.

ACPA has always known that TA1 was fait accompli through arbitration. Their plan was to force AC to abandon TA1 through light job action. The government and Corp colluded to make sure ACPA could not apply that pressure.

But hey. They tried. That is their right.

Now ACPA has accepted they will not be successful in forcing AC to abandon TA1. That the concepts within TA1 are not avoidable.

That is it. Its a cross roads.

ACPA allowed a small group, probably well intentioned, to purse "their" vision without membership support. That lack of oversight resulted in an unsupported MOA that eventually was to be forced on the group.

Really this is ACPA's fault. All originating from an oversight issue.

[rudder]

Still pushing for LCC? Then why would you not want to be in the drivers seat for setting terms and conditions (and proposing status quo for pilots/screw everybody else is not a mature proposal).

TA1 was an imperfect document that contained some very valuable concepts. Had round 2 of bargaining been based on the TA1 concepts then this matter would probably reside in the past. I do not know why the strategic decision was made to pretend TA1 never happened, but that and several other decisions have placed ACPA where it finds itself today. The 10 day window was the final opportunity to craft an agreed TA1 type document as opposed to what is the likely FOS outcome of TA1 as written (updated for agreed items) or less.

The DAL pilots just reached an early negotiated agreement with a pay increase of 20% over 3 years, most of that up front. It is amazing what you can achieve when your employer is profitable and motivated. Perhaps at the end of this agreement the same will be said for AC. But I doubt it.

[Ah_yeah]

Yes, ACPA had a mammoth oversight issue. Too few guys wearing too many hats and a healthy dose of blind trust by the majority. The awakening occured too late but better late than never.
So if the result will be TA 1.1, who will be deemed the idiot ? The union for trying to better it for it's members or the corp for burning millions of dollars over 15 months just to screw the pilots ?
The damage IMO is irrepairable. The majority of the pilots will not lift a finger for this company unless it is the middle finger to it's criminal CEO.
All the while Westjet prospers...kudos to them I guess.

[Fanblade]

The damage IMO is irrepairable. The majority of the pilots will not lift a finger for this company unless it is the middle finger to it's criminal CEO.

The company believes, or at least they claims to believe, everything will return to normal once the ruling us out.

They point to the 10 days of negotiations. Everything turned back to normal instantly.

I agree with you though. If they really believe what they are saying they are way out of touch.

[rudder]

The damage IMO is irrepairable. The majority of the pilots will not lift a finger for this company unless it is the middle finger to it's criminal CEO.

At some point, perhaps too late, the AC pilots will realise that their cherished seniority numbers only have value at one company - AC. So feel free to spend every minute of every day trying to sabotage the enterprise and await the result.

If you believe that you have the only true vested interest in the continued viability of the company, then start acting like it. What ideas of value has ACPA brought to the table? What investment (via the collective agreement) is ACPA prepared to make to yield perhaps a greater return than would be the case by doing absolutely nothing other than accept the inevitable arbitration result?

There is a reason that many believe that the only way to fix AC is to kill it. Reading some of the rhetoric on these bards and online, it is hard not to draw the same conclusion.