getting a flying job these days !

[Slats]

I know guys who started on a twin, IFR and single pilot.

Really? Started out SPIFR? Given the time requirements to do SPIFR that sounds like a rather fantastic claim.

Anyhow, some really next level stuff being posted here. Such fresh and original insights.

[cdnpilot77]

I know guys who started on a twin, IFR and single pilot.

Really? Started out SPIFR? Given the time requirements to do SPIFR that sounds like a rather fantastic claim.

Anyhow, some really next level stuff being posted here. Such fresh and original insights.

What are the time requirements for a private (non-commercially) registered Navajo with a CPL hired to fly it for say a corporation? It happens more than you would expect.

[Doc]

I know guys who started on a twin, IFR and single pilot.

Really? Started out SPIFR? Given the time requirements to do SPIFR that sounds like a rather fantastic claim.

Anyhow, some really next level stuff being posted here. Such fresh and original insights.

I'll bite. What ARE the "time requirements" to fly SPIFR? Last time I looked, a CPL with an IFR rating was all that's required. Has something changed?
Do these "requirements" change after working the ramp for two years? Three? I mean, according to most of the posters here, working on a ramp makes you a better pilot.

[Slats]

I guess. Must be some real Fortune 500 corporations that won't spring for even a thousand hour corporate pilot...

To fly their Navajo...

[cdnpilot77]

I guess. Must be some real Fortune 500 corporations that won't spring for even a thousand hour corporate pilot...

To fly their Navajo...

Hours in the logbook don't always equate to a more proficient pilot.

Colonel Sanders, care to share what your kid was doing in an airplane at 300-350hrs TT and 18yrs old?

[Mr.Blonde]

I hit the terrace with some friends tonight and between rickard's red sip and glimpse at the waitress, I asked my electrician friend what you guys do with your apprentice...you made them swept the floor for 2-years? Guess what...no they don't !


It's not the perfect comparison with the electrician but way better than the one with the doctor. Maybe we can compare the responsability,profesionnalism, ethic, hands skill and judgement as it was the same level of a pilot, or near to it.

At the start guys do the initial training in an approved school by the governement. They had to do entry exam, there's a selection process which control the number of guys accepted. The training theory and practice take around 12-18 months. When they finish the training they do the initial exam, to get the apprentice licences,this exam is provided by an independant organism. This organism is paid by the workers and employers that the only mission is to rules the training, labor managment, salary and subsequent formation.

This organism have no link with the other body that set the rules and standard in construction electricity nor with the syndicate. The management board is composed with equal sharing of the patronal, syndicate representative and independent. So this organism can make inspection on construction site, if they find that an apprentice do the groom job, the company is fined. If they find that there's more apprentice on the construction site than companion which is usually, 2 apprentices for 1 companion, the company is fined...etc. After a while and the required work hours, the apprentice can pass the exam to upgrade at the companion status...

I'm just throwing this in the discussion while we are at the comparaison...

[DanWEC]

I know guys who started on a twin, IFR and single pilot.

Really? Started out SPIFR? Given the time requirements to do SPIFR that sounds like a rather fantastic claim.

Anyhow, some really next level stuff being posted here. Such fresh and original insights.

What are the time requirements for a private (non-commercially) registered Navajo with a CPL hired to fly it for say a corporation? It happens more than you would expect.

Sort of, maybe.

[atmosphere]

It's not the perfect comparison with the electrician but way better than the one with the doctor. Maybe we can compare the responsability,profesionnalism, ethic, hands skill and judgement as it was the same level of a pilot, or near to it.

I'm just throwing this in the discussion while we are at the comparaison...

When I compared pilots to doctors, I wasn't comparing them on the basis of how long their schooling took. As you mentioned above Mr. Blonde, pilots have just as much responsibility, professionalism, ethic and judgement/decision making as doctor do. So therefore I believe that they are comparable. Any individual that has received formal professional education and has invested thousands of dollars in it should be able to enter their field in a respectable entry level position.

[Doc]

Any individual that has received formal professional education and has invested thousands of dollars in it should be able to enter their field in a respectable entry level position.

ABSOLUTELY!!! This IS the bottom line.

[Slats]

Well, spending lots of money on a "formal education" never guaranteed anything, but I suppose it's a nice sentiment. It certainly doesn't guarantee that when you finish said education, an entry level position will be available to you, regardless of how entitled you feel. What a person chooses to do for employment in the interim is not any of your or my business.

But I guess if everyone stopped getting all hot and bothered about things that don't affect them, we wouldn't get to have our monthly re-hash of this and numerous other topics! Then how would things stay fresh and entertaining?

[Mr.Blonde]

Any individual that has received formal professional education and has invested thousands of dollars in it should be able to enter their field in a respectable entry level position.

I agree that in many industry it's true and it's the way how things work.

I followed a IFR theory course. Next to me there was a 23-years old douchebag with 200TT CPL/Multi and he's getting the IFR. All day he was talking about BS in many area and how he's good at landing the 152 in 20G30 Xwind in 35' feet wide grass runway...I can't judge if it's true or not, I was not in the cockpit with this guys, but I can state that it would be never authorised by the FTU ! He was also asking many stupid question about basics stuff, there's no stupid question, but apparently this guy can find some !

Also, his plan to get a job was to go north work 6-months on the ramp then going right seated on the DC-3, quote "it will be so f*& nice and easy to fly, it's an old aircraft" unquote. I was a bit surprised when he discovered that his E6B flight computer had 2-sides and he don't know how it work, not knowing how it work wasn't the issue because you can use the cx2, but what bothered me was how can you spend 20$ for somethings and not using it or curious about how it's work...and probably he don't know either how his breitling watch work...

I don't have the experience to judge his flight skills or I don't think you can judge a pilot flight skills while he's on the ground...but apparently I think he must improve some others skills and attitude,and there's a lot of those guys in FTU...

I have absolutly no doubt that after doing the same waiting pattern, shooting the same ILS over and over to practice his flight test, he got his IFR group 1 rating...He paid his training and he got the professional education...Is he habilitate to get a flying entry level position ? how much it will cost for the company to train and to give them the entry level position to those kind of guys...?

[Cat Driver]

in 35' feet wide grass runway...

A 35 foot wide runway will never be a problem in a light aircraft if you are taught to always land on the center line and stay there during the landing roll out.

[iflyforpie]

Any individual that has received formal professional education and has invested thousands of dollars in it should be able to enter their field in a respectable entry level position.

Yes it should be that way, but it is simply not.

The amount of education you have does not determine your salary or working conditions. Ask any liberal arts student who went and got a PhD in History or Philosophy what the jobs prospects and remuneration is like.

The amount of people who depend on you for safety does not determine your salary or working conditions. A guy working the griddle at McDonalds has the potential to kill more people on a daily basis than most pilots.

The only two things that affect your job and pay are supply and demand. Nobody wants to go up to Fort Mac except for big money, so they pay. Nobody wants to go to the Middle East and live in a compound, so they pay. Nobody has 10,000 hours of heavy jet time on international routes, so they pay.

Everybody has a CPL, 200 hours, and a heartbeat. It is up to what you can a) offer the company other than just a bare bones CPL (loyalty, other relevant skills, etc), or b) how low you are willing to stoop to get that job.

People make the mistake of becoming pilots and thinking that the entry-level conditions will somehow not affect them; or that somehow they can make them change. Like Doc says, unless you are lucky, know somebody, or can stand out somehow , you don't stand a chance.

[Airtids]

Read up, Doc:

723.86 Minimum Crew

Single Pilot IFR Requirements

The standard for the operation of an aeroplane with passengers on board in IFR flight without a second-in-command is:

(1) the pilot shall have a minimum of 1000 hours of flight time which shall include, if the type to be flown is multi-engined, 100 hours on multi-engined aeroplanes. In addition, the pilot shall have 50 hours of simulated or actual flight in IMC, and a total of 50 hours flight time on the aeroplane type;

Here's the reality: Many operations require help on the ramp- bush, downtown, wherever. They will hire FOR THOSE RAMP POSITIONS. Very few (actually, none that I know of) will dictate that a CPL is a condition for employment on the ramp. These same operations also hire at an entry level for flight operations. Now, as the owner/CP, if I need to stick a guy/gal into the right seat of my B1900, who am I going to choose: CPL/MIFR endorsed Jimmy who has shown some real character while employed by my company as a Rampie, or CPL/MIFR Johnny who I don't know from a hole in the ground, but has submitted me a resume??

In my view, you can choose to work a ramp or not. Go ahead and hold out for a flying position. Congratulations if you get there either way, but I think your liklihood of getting a seat is greater if those doing the hiring know who/what you are.

[DanWEC]

As a nitpick point, the above CARS standard is for a 703 op w /pax only. It doesn't apply to privately operated corporate planes or 702 ops.

[cdnpilot77]

Airtids, CPL + group 1 IFR is all that's required to be hired fly a Navajo or any other light twin that is registered "privately". In theory a 200hr wonder could do just that. There are at least 2 members on these boards that I know of for sure who have been hired in such a capacity. The CARS you quoted is for commercial 703 ops or higher.

[CPLMike89]

in 35' feet wide grass runway...

A 35 foot wide runway will never be a problem in a light aircraft if you are taught to always land on the center line and stay there during the landing roll out.

Have to agree with Cat on this one, In the last two months I've flown with three pilots who hold a CPL and yet they have no desire to line up with and hold the centerline from the turn onto final to the end of the rollout. Sorry to rant.

[Cat Driver]

If a pilot can not track the centerline from turning final to the end of the landing roll out they should not hold a commercial pilots license...period.

[Airtids]

Airtids, CPL + group 1 IFR is all that's required to be hired fly a Navajo or any other light twin that is registered "privately". In theory a 200hr wonder could do just that. There are at least 2 members on these boards that I know of for sure who have been hired in such a capacity. The CARS you quoted is for commercial 703 ops or higher.

I realise that what you were referring to was 604, but I didn't catch that same drift in Doc's response. The VAST majority of first IFR jobs (as per the original topic) are 703, maybe 704, where the requirements are as stated above. Most 604 ops are also run to a 703 standard at a minimum (heaven help those unfortunates involved in a 604 that runs to a 604 standard: Flt/Duty times, anyone??)... I'm not denying for a second that it happens, just pointing out that it is extremely rare. Hell, even the bag runs are 2 crew nowadays!

[Doc]

If a pilot can not track the centerline from turning final to the end of the landing roll out they should not hold a commercial pilots license...period.

I tend to "visit" the centre line, as I "inspect" both sides of the runway on my zig zag journey down the length of said runway. But then, I don't have a CPL, so for me, it's Okay.

[Mr.Blonde]

A 35 foot wide runway

It was more a random number to illustrate my story...Sometimes I like drawing cartoon, it's my biggest skills just above my flight skills...I made one for the possible career path of the guys I met in the IFR class...I censured the end because it involve TC...

[X-Savior]

Rofl, that sequence just made my day! Thank You!

[klund]

As a Low time pilot myself, I have put out resumes for the Ramp route because of reading and understanding that unless you have a tremendous amount of luck or know someone, it is one of the only routes into a flying position. I have been sending resume's for a month and have had only 2 interviews so far and the worst part is playing the waiting/ calling back games with the companies. I know some of you may say take the road trip, unfortunately I don't have that much cash or time to do the cross Canada road trip with no guarantee of employment. For now i'm crossing my fingers and just waiting for the call as my ability to up and relocate is very flexible. (If anyone has a lead feel free to PM me ).

On a side note, A doctor has to intern at a hospital for several years to become qualified. A teacher has to do a practicum in a school for free and does not get paid. Furthermore a Lawyer has to do an articling term to qualify for writing the BAR. Many would be lawyers don't even get paid and are just interns. Most professions do not allow you to immediately jump into the job, And one must accept it. However, 2+ years ramping it out for certain companies in yellowknife would bite.

[Doc]

On a side note, A doctor has to intern at a hospital for several years to become qualified. A teacher has to do a practicum in a school for free and does not get paid. Furthermore a Lawyer has to do an articling term to qualify for writing the BAR. Many would be lawyers don't even get paid and are just interns. Most professions do not allow you to immediately jump into the job, And one must accept it. However, 2+ years ramping it out for certain companies in yellowknife would bite.

You keep smoking whatever it is you're smoking.

[jpilot77]

I would say flying a 172 (or any other very light trainer category aircraft) VFR = being a intern or articling. Captain on a transport category aircraft is more akin to being a doctor or a lawyer.

Interns do not have a full medical license to practice unsupervised. They don't mop the floors as has been pointed out before.