Ice Pilots Started

[pelmet]

First off, where those two accidents because of a failure to go around, a loss of control after touchdown or did they occur on takeoff?

Both accidents were landing accidents. As you can see on the first one, there is an impact mark below the threshold. Exact reason unknown. But it is a fairly long runway. Why would you come in so low and flat. Any more details would be welcome.

The second accident with an updated picture here was at Ulu which is a relatively short runway. Near 4000 feet I believe. The markings on the runway are very similar. It is difficult to see but the runway is elevated here as well. Any more details would be welcome.

Somebody must know the details of what happened.

[Genetk44]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h3ZF8zHiBRA

Beef.....

Google is your friend..


...with a bit of searching you will find you tube videos of our trip from Toulouse to Santiago.

Probably under Patrick Baudry.

[howard40]

For a complete computer know nothing like me, can someone please post a place I can actually watch season 4 episode 1 of ice pilots? online (no tv here) may need to leave semi detailed instructions thanks

[LuckyPilot]

Over the years the primary cause of most accidents, outside of extreme mechanical failure, have been ego and stupidity. This forum has plenty of both.

[LuckyPilot]

CAT, hope you didn't take offence to my post. In my 35 years of flying I have suffered form both at one time or another, fortunately for my employer and passengers, never at the same time.

[CFR]

What this forum needs luckypilot is posters who can explain to the members here how to fly airplanes safely.

Check out the video that was linked several posts ago and carefully watch the landing in the water after passing over the bridge.

That must be a very weird feeling coming off the step and having the Cat settle into the water! I looks like it is a 10 foot change!

[complexintentions]

This whole thread is hilarious. Buffalo Joe was an embarrassment to himself, I can only hope the tv editing is to blame for that. Second-guessing the captain, publicly criticizing - hey Joe, if you don't trust someone, don't give them the position! I do appreciate the point about knowing your systems, but totally unprofessional across the board. The guy had a doubt, he went around with two engines in daylight VMC. A non-event.

Then the thread devolves into the usual completely unrelated stuff about training philosophies, continuing an approach in low vis to a landing, landing flying boats, demands to PROVE that Buffalo must be safe because they haven't had a lot of accidents...*sigh*...all we need now is a certain someone to post a link to some stupid GoPro video of some boring aerobatics in the southern US somewhere and the thread will be another AvCanada classic!

[180]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahhahahahahaa!!!

[Siddley Hawker]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the variable tailwind on the go-around.

[tons-o-fun]

Does anyone else find the not so background music extremely loud compared to the voices? Is it just me? Kind of annoying!

[North Shore]

For a complete computer know nothing like me, can someone please post a place I can actually watch season 4 episode 1 of ice pilots? online (no tv here) may need to leave semi detailed instructions thanks

It's now been posted on the History Channel site: http://www.history.ca/video/#video

[jump154]

So I'm thinking last night's episode was written by Cat and Hedley.....

[Taiser]

Just watched the last one...it does seem like the TC inspector in his area is quite the prick...we're only hearing one side of course, but from my experience TC is never fun to deal with...

On the upside, Mikey's personal trainer is SMOKIN' HOT!!!

[single_swine_herder]

Yeah .... ya gotta think aviation is going to hell in a handbasket when an operator is expected to comply with the regulations and standards with respect to pilot training and recording what was done during that training. Especially so when an Inspector is standing right there watching.

Sort of like being pissed about a traffic cop giving you a ticket when you blow through a red light and he's stopped in the next lane over as you merrily and oblivious to your surroundings carry on through the intersection at speed through a light that changed 15 seconds before.

They also seemed to make the common mistake of thinking staff training is measured exclusively in hours, not in completion of items listed in the CASS annually regardless of how many hours it takes. The specified number of hours is a minimum, but completion of the list of exercises is generally much longer than the minimum flight time from most of the airports in the country.

But what the heck .... it made for good TV.

[nopilot]

So who was right? the TC guy or Joe? Is it legal to do training on empty non revenue legs? and if not, why has he been doing it for years? (at least according to the show) Or is there more to it that the show didn't explain?

[oldyellr]

Obviously, the bureaucracy will always be right, even when it's wrong. It's inflexible. Joe just had to find a way to appease them while alleviating his situation. You can't "fight city hall".

[FICU]

So who was right? the TC guy or Joe? Is it legal to do training on empty non revenue legs?

Empty is one thing but non-revenue is another. I would guess the price Buffalo charges to haul stuff also includes the empty return leg so that empty leg is still a revenue flight.

It's the same as counting empty medevac legs towards pilot training... can't do it.

[A Regulator]

CAR705 is different than the rest, in short yes you can do on empty legs but not for initial training, must be qualified crews, no emergencies etc. and if APPROVED. You must have a very detailed program but also only certain stuff can be done as some required stuff can only be done with no passengers those items are specified in the CASS. It is an extremely difficult for an operator to do as it is a lot easier to just make up a regular program than spend the time making up this type of detailed program. You must also ensure that if the normal time on your lets say revenue flight is one hour and then you put in one hour on your training records but indicate you did several approaches, engine shut downs and ILS at an airport that does not have an ILS, well I'm sorry I will call BS and ask questions. You are better off reading the CAR/CASS and spread your training over a defined period of time and concentrate on providing training in the time you specify. 705 has a lot of good benefits that the other ones do not have or allow.

[Taiser]

Well if the last inspectors he had let it go, for years apparently, yet the new one says no, then there is obviously NO CONSISTENCY in interpreting the regs (but we all know that anyways), and it's not the only inconsistency IMHO either. And not that I'm siding with Joe (I think he's a horrible boss) but if he asked specifically where in the Regs something was that he was in violation of and the Inspector couldn't show him (and I'm taking the show at face value here that he really didn't) then I'm thinking the interpretation is too open and that can let prick inspectors with too much leeway! Of course there are lots of CAR's regs that can be open to interpretation so you'd think TC would start clarifying some of these a bit more.

[A Regulator]

It is a tv show edited for entertainment

[Eric Janson]

(I think he's a horrible boss)

Always interesting to read comments from people who have never worked there and base their opinions on a TV show. Ice Pilots is not a documentary it is entertainment. Nobody wants to see routine operations - it's not good television.

For the record:-

I worked there for 7 years.
I started on the ramp and I was Captain on the DC-3 when I left. Joe didn't have to promote me.
I have at least 1000 hours as Joe's co-pilot.
When I left Joe gave me a 2 page letter of reference (I never asked for one).
Things I learned flying there have kept me out of trouble flying the large jets.

I don't need to defend Joe - he is perfectly capable of defending himself.

Ice Pilots has really put Buffalo on the map. I had 2 controllers from London Heathrow on my flight earlier this year. The asked me about my background. The first thing they said when I mentioned Canada was "Ice Pilots!" I told them I'd worked there - you should have seen the look on their faces.

I'm really enjoying the show. brings back a lot of memories.

[CFR]

It is a tv show edited for entertainment

Every so often I have to remind my wife to go to the TV screen, tap on the glass and say "this side reality... that side fantasy"

[single_swine_herder]

Edited for TV, and facts selected to gain an audience, not reflect reality or truth.

Not unlike the disgusting hack job the CBC did on WW2 Lancaster Pilots in their production by the Mckenna brothers in the mockumentary "The Valour and The Horror."

[Kestral]

Was Interesting to see the new Rampie in YHY pack up and leave after such a short time. Also, to see the new female Rampie show up in YZF for a try-out in sneakers and bare hands. Probably didn't expect to be thrown to the wolves so quickly and actually have to get on a flight and go north. I understand that it is summer and all, but boots and gloves would make sense even if not composite tow. A little research goes a long way.

[pelmet]

First off, where those two accidents because of a failure to go around, a loss of control after touchdown or did they occur on takeoff?

No one seems to want to provide details. Here is some more info. Any additional details would be welcome. You might save lives in the future, if that is important.

"TSB reported that the Buffalo Airways Ltd. Douglas C54G (DC-4), C-GBSK, was landing at the ULU mining strip with 45 drums of diesel fuel. On short final, the crew noticed that they were too fast, and reduced power as the flaps were selected to full. As the aircraft began to settle, power was increased, but the aircraft continued to descend. When the Captain initiated the flare, the aircraft landed short of the runway threshold, collapsing the landing gear. The wings separated from the fuselage and caught fire, and the fuselage veered off the RH side of the runway. There were no injuries to the 4 crew. ULU airstrip has a crushed rock runway 3,800 feet long by 90 feet wide, with a 500 foot overrun area. Elevation is about 1,600 feet, with a hill at about mid-way along its length. This occurrence is similar to a previous company occurrence (A02W0168) at Diavik, NT in 2002."