On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,

you failed to include our Greek deployment over a 2-3 year period in your calculations. C-GLBW from EuroCypria.

Euroview,

+1

I found it and a corrected the post. I was confused because that aircraft changed hands. It went from being a Cypriot dry-Lease to Sunwing for 2 years to becoming a Canadian Wet-Lease to Cyprus for 3 years.......

[OPEC6-Heavy]

I believe it was 14 pilots for 3 years. Maybe someone can correct me.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

deleted

[morningwood]

[quote="Gilles HudicourtI
In 2006, Sunwing sent 3 aircraft to Europe, all three to Excel Airways, C-FTAE, C-FTAE and C-FTAH
In 2007, Sunwing sent 3 aircraft to Europe, 2 to Excel, C-FTAE and C-FTAH, and one to XL Airways, C-GOAF
In 2008, Sunwing sent 3 aircraft to Europe, same aircraft and companies as in 2007.
In 2009, Sunwing sent 3 aircraft to Europe, 2 to Viking Airways, C-FEAK and C-FYLC and one to Travel Service, C-FTDW
In 2010, Sunwing sent 3 aircraft to Europe, to Viking Airways, TDW, EAK and YLC
In 2011, Sunwing sent 3 aircraft to Europe, 2 to to Thomson, YLC and and C-FLZR and one to Travel Service, TDW
In 2012, Sunwing sent 4 aircraft to Europe, 3 to Thomson, C-FTLK, YLC and LZR and one to Travel Service, TDW.

For a grand total of 22 aircraft with crew.

In the other direction, Sunwing has been making use of temporary foreign aircraft since the winter 2006-2007.

In 2006 they brought in 2 aircraft C-GDBX and C-GLWb from EuroCypria
In 2007, they brought in 3 aircraft, C-FEAG from XL Airways, and 2 from EuroCypria, C-GDBX and C-GLBW
In 2008, they brought in 8 aircraft, C-FXLD from XL Germany, C-GDBX and C-GLBW from Eurocypria, and C-GHZC, C-GKZA, PH-HZE, PH-HZK and PH-HZL from Transavia.
In 2009, they brought in 4 aircraft, C-FYLD from XL Germany, C-GDBX and C-GLBW from EuroCypria and SE-RHS from Viking.
In 2010, they brought in 6 aircraft, all from Thomson : C-FRZG, C-FRZJ, C-FRZB, C-FDZD, C-FDZE and C-FDZF.
In 2011, the explosion, they brought in 18 aircraft. I will spare you the registrations.
This year, they are bringing in 21 aircraft.

Since it was founded, Sunwing imported a grand total of 62 temporary aircraft and crew.

If doing 1:1 swaps, regardless of registration, was what their intention was, I would be fine with that. But the above numbers speak for themselves.

This year I asked Immigration Canada to send me the number of work permits that had been provided to Sunwing since 2005. The actual number of pilots is actually lower than those statistics, since some of those who were provided with work permits did not stay, failed their tests, or for whatever reason did not stay, but they still provide a good indication and the fluctuations match the number of aircraft posted above.

"Permits Issued at Port of Entry Offices* for Temporary Foreign Workers
by National Occupation Code (NOC):
(22710: Air Pilots & Flight Engineers + NOC 22711: Pilots)
with C20 Exemption: Reciprocal Employment** "

Calendar Year NOC 22711 - Pilots Total
2005 69
2006 65
2007 60
2008 79
2009 48
2010 78
2011 224

*Permits issued at a port of entry office (airport and border).
**Reciprocal Employment (C20) exemption is used for seasonal workers.
Notes:
All of the work permits issued in the above table have been exempted under Reciprocal Employment (C20)* (R205 of IRPA). R205(b) allows foreign workers to take up employment when reciprocal opportunities are provided for Canadian citizens to take temporary employment abroad. Exchange programs offer the opportunity of gaining international experience and allow the cultural exchange of both foreign and Canadian participants and their employers.
Requestor: Gilles Hudicourt (cost recovery)
Data source: nim_foss_workperm_e as of Oct. 02, 2012
Data compiled by: OPS-Stats
Request # OPS-2012-1974
RDIMS #2980514

Need I comment these figures or do they speak for themselves ?

Gilles
you claim to know all the facts, but your post are full of half truths, errors and ommissions.

what about the airframes and pilots contracted from Canadian company Kelowna Flightcraft by Sunwing vacations to operate in NCL and GLA in 2004 and 2005?
what about the airframes and pilots sent to operate for EuroCypria in 2008 and 2009?
what about the Sunwing pilots sent to operate Foreign reg aircraft in MAN and BRU in 2011?
what about the Sunwing pilots operating out of ATL, CVG and BNA for their US company, vacation express?

I thought that the title of this thread was about the foreign Pilot issue, not airframes.
Sunwing imports many airframes during the peak season which are flown by Canadian pilots, and to imply that all imported airframes are only flown by foreign pilots is simply not true.
Lets stick to the pilot issue. I really don't understand why you have an issue with airframes going back and forth accross the pond, except that it allows you to imply foreign pilot numbers which are simply not true.
I have a hard time believing that your NOC Air Pilots & Flight Engineers are Sunwing only numbers.
I thought that Sunwing operated 4 aircraft in 2005 with approximately 40 pilots on staff?
Are you saying that in this year, Sunwing also brought in 69 foreign pilots to operate these 4 aircraft?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

One should learn to read before one is allowed to post. I no longer reply to such posts.

For the record, Canjet which only has 5 full time aircraft employs 120 full time pilots. The extra pilots are to fly most of the foreign leased aircraft in the winter.

Sunwing which has 10 aircraft, employs 150 full time pilots and just recently hired Canadian 20 part timers, and only did so under pressure. They never had enough pilots of their own to fly more than a token number of the imported temporary aircraft. The rest were flown by foreigners.

Even this year, with the 20 extra seasonal pilots, it can crew just 2 extra aircraft with Canadians. The other 19 extra aircraft are flown by foreigners.

[morningwood]

when someone questions your "facts", you resort to personal attacks?

[60N30W]

"you claim to know all the facts, but your post are full of half truths, errors and ommissions.

what about the airframes and pilots contracted from Canadian company Kelowna Flightcraft by Sunwing vacations to operate in NCL and GLA in 2004 and 2005?
what about the airframes and pilots sent to operate for EuroCypria in 2008 and 2009?
what about the Sunwing pilots sent to operate Foreign reg aircraft in MAN and BRU in 2011?
what about the Sunwing pilots operating out of ATL, CVG and BNA for their US company, vacation express?"


Morningwood

Are you suggesting that pilots employed by KFC (receiving a KFC paycheque) should be counted as Sunwing pilots for the purpose of counting the total number of Sunwing pilots deployed overseas?

How can you count the pilots operating out of the US in the numbers and why would you? They are operating Sunwing aircraft for a Sunwing company, and most likely are there without work visas or any permit at all, more than likely operating under rules associated with free trade.

Think it is important to compare apples to apples.

Regards,

60N30W

[Gilles Hudicourt]

when someone questions your "facts", you resort to personal attacks?

No someone did contest my "facts" with the Cypriot deployment and I corrected it.

You mention a KFC deployment made before Sunwing Airlines was founded.
You mention the Cypriot deployment that I had mentionned, thinking it was pilots only, I have since corrected it.
You mention the 2011 pilots to Europe, its in my post.

As for the US flights, you're joking right ? Did anyone go live six months in the States ?

I have a hard time believing that your NOC Air Pilots & Flight Engineers are Sunwing only numbers.

That is also covered in my post. Read. Then reply. Please.

[morningwood]

Morningwood

Are you suggesting that pilots employed by KFC (receiving a KFC paycheque) should be counted as Sunwing pilots for the purpose of counting the total number of Sunwing pilots deployed overseas?

Thank you for your reply 60N30W.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
The contracted Canadian KFC pilots were working in the UK in 2004 and 2005, under the sunwing banner and their paycheques came from Mr Hunter via KFC.
This is very transparent and I believe that sunwing also sent some of their own contracted "sunwing" pilots, to work in the UK alongside the KFC pilots in 2005.

How can you count the pilots operating out of the US in the numbers and why would you? They are operating Sunwing aircraft for a Sunwing company, and most likely are there without work visas or any permit at all, more than likely operating under rules associated with free trade.

I thought that the whole issue being raised here is the number of Canadian pilots working in a foreign country vs the number of foreign pilots working in Canada?
The United States is a foreign country.
Whether the sunwing pilots spent 6 months, three months, one month or rotated out every few days really has no relevance.
Yes, Vacation Express is a sunwing owned US company, but again, there really is no relevance here.
Does TUI not own 49% of Sunwing?

Some have spent many hour researching the tail registrations of the aircraft which are shared back and forth between Canada and Europe, but many international companies move their assets around the world every day.
Again, I really don't see the relevance here.

I am just as Canadian as the next guy, and I am all for 1:1 pilot reciprocity, but all of the facts must be laid on the table, not just some of the facts, which is my only intention here.

[60N30W]

Hello Morningwood,

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
The contracted Canadian KFC pilots were working in the UK in 2004 and 2005, under the sunwing banner and their paycheques came from Mr Hunter via KFC.
This is very transparent and I believe that sunwing also sent some of their own contracted "sunwing" pilots, paid directly by sunwing, to work in the UK alongside the KFC pilots in 2005 just prior to Sunwing Airlines obtaining their own OC.


I have some difficulties with your position in regard to KFC pilots being counted as Sunwing and will try to explain my thoughts.

After having re-read the reciprocity policy that Gilles has quoted many times I am left with the feeling that the intent of the policy is that it be applied in regard to the relationship between two companies or institutions, and their direct exchange of people between them. For example: The Edmonton Flying Club and the Moscow Flying Club exchanging instructors, two from Edmonton go to Moscow for a couple months then two from Moscow come to Edmonton for an equal amount of time. I do not think the rules allow or is the intent of the rules is to allow EFC to bring in Russian Instructors and claim it is a reciprocal arrangement because the Saskatoon flying Club recently sent Instructors to China.

Your position as I see it is that the KFC pilots count since they are paid by Sunwing. In reality they are not paid by Sunwing or Hunter at all. They are paid by KFC and their employment relationship is with KFC not with Sunwing. Who their employer does business with is not relevant at all to the pilots. In your example and based on my interpretation of the policy the only company that could claim anything under reciprocity would be KFC, it is their pilots going overseas and therefore only they could apply to bring foreign crews to Canada.

While we have argued that this is about protecting Canadian jobs it is also about making sure the rules and regulations that we work under are followed by everyone involved.



"How can you count the pilots operating out of the US in the numbers and why would you? They are operating Sunwing aircraft for a Sunwing company, and most likely are there without work visas or any permit at all, more than likely operating under rules associated with free trade."

"I thought that the whole issue being raised here is the number of Canadian pilots working in a foreign country vs the number of foreign pilots working in Canada?
The United States is a foreign country.
Whether the sunwing pilots spent 6 months, three months, one month or rotated out every few days really has no relevance.
Yes, Vacation Express is a sunwing owned US company, but again, there really is no relevance here.
Does TUI not own 49% of Sunwing?"

The issue to me is how those pilots are being counted in regard to the rules and regulations applicable to the Governments reciprocity programs. The Sunwing pilots who go and do some turns out of Baltimore are no different than K.Borek Twin Otter pilots flying at the South Pole, Voyageur and Regional 1 pilots flying in Africa or CHC pilots operating just about all over the planet. They are there on contracts obtained by their employer in parts of the world that cannot supply the service locally for one reason or another . This is very different than bringing in pilots for a seasonal operation in Canada where there are already a good number of qualified/quantifiable pilots available. In my view Sunwing is using some very creative math to justify that the European pilots are coming into Canada under reciprocal arrangements. Simply they are mixing apples with carrots! Next some operator will say that since a bunch of Canadian pilots work for Emirates that they are able to bring in a bunch of pilots to operate their winter southern service and employ no Canadians. If things keep going the way they are, that is what is going to happen next and that will be negative for everyone ( except those foreign pilots!)

"Some have spent many hour researching the tail registrations of the aircraft which are shared back and forth between Canada and Europe, but many international companies move their assets around the world every day.
Again, I really don't see the relevance here."

I would say that this highlights the fact that it is impossible for Sunwing to be applying the reciprocity program the way it is intended to used. How can you have a fleet of 8 or so airplanes, send a few overseas every summer then more than double your fleet for the winter and claim you are bringing in an equal number of pilots as you have sent overseas during the summer. Just does not work mathematically if you are following the intent of the policy (The way I see it that is, and I think others see it this way too.) If you think I am wrong on this please provide the information. Show everyone the number of Sunwing Canadian pilots that go to XYZ Company and the number of XYZ pilots that come to Canada. If it is 1:1 then everything is cool, I suspect it is not.

"I am just as Canadian as the next guy, and I am all for 1:1 pilot reciprocity, but all of the facts must be laid on the table, not just some of the facts, which is my only intention here."

Sorry about my use of color here I am just not that good at the whole cut and paste thing, on top of that my 15 year old computer consultant is not home at the moment so I am left to navigate complex posting alone. Funny I can fly an A330 with all it's complex computers without any problems but when it comes to using a home computer I am still struggling.

On another note I am getting frustrated with the number of people who have basically threatened Gilles for speaking up and then hide behind anonymity, what ever happened to freedom of speech and expression? If you want to threaten him have the courage to post under your own name, otherwise the behavior seems cowardly. ( Not implying you here Morningwood, others and they know who they are)

Morningwood, I look forward to continuing this discussion with you, would be a lot nicer to sit down and have a couple of beers and hash over the issues instead of doing it over a message board.

Regards,

60N30W

A.K.A. Matthew Jackson
Captain A330 TSC

[morningwood]

Morningwood, I look forward to continuing this discussion with you, would be a lot nicer to sit down and have a couple of beers and hash over the issues instead of doing it over a message board.
Regards,
60N30W

Thank you, I would enjoy having a chat with you over a few pints.
Maybe I'll pm you the next time I'm rostered through YUL. The first round is on me.

Many of us have been around long enough to witness first hand, Canadian airlines come and go. The nature of the beast this time around, is that one of the few ways to make a seasonal vacation charter airline profitable and sustainable in the long term, is to keep your equipment and pilots working year round. This means that Canadian pilots must take their equipment off to a foreign land for work during the slow season, and our foreign counterparts must bring their equipment here to work during the busy season.

[60N30W]

Morningwood,

Going to be hard to meet in YUL since I am YYZ based and only get there for SIM twice a year along with the odd through flight to CDG.

No issues with the business concept, issue is with whether or not the rules are followed at the end of the day. I know the SUNPAC group working hard on this issue.

We will cross path somewhere for that beer sometime.

Regards,

MJ

[morningwood]

Agreed 100%
Sunwing has a great group of people working for them, and the training department is comprised of some of the most experienced, competent pilots in Canada, second to none.
There are no pilots that make it through the sim with a stamp on their ticket, if they don't make the cut.
The Sunwing pilots have always received a warm and professional welcome overseas, even though the European economic climate and airline labour market is much worse off than it is here and our British counterparts are also an excellent group of very experienced, well disciplined pilots.
My appologies for assuming that you were YUL based.

[Scuba_Steve]

and our British counterparts are also an excellent group of very experienced, well disciplined pilots.
My appologies for assuming that you were YUL based.

My understanding is that the relationship between Sunwing and your British partners is very near reciprocal, and well supported on both sides, if that's the case great! I hope they use that as the basis for all other agreements moving forward, then full time year round employment for more Canadians and our European friends...

Cheers

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The final results on the poll about foreign pilots

Poll ended at Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:17 am

It's not an issue for me, leaves me indifferent 2% [ 5 ]
I am upset against the airlines that make use of them 17% [ 41 ]
I am upset against Government Agencies that allow this to occur 42% [ 103 ] x
Airlines should be allowed to hire whom they want, Canadian or Foreign 2% [ 5 ]
I support their use as long as it is in accordance with a fair, 100% reciprocal agreement 33% [ 80 ] x
They promote competition and help provide low fares to the population 1% [ 2 ]
I want to burn them at the stake or tar and feather them 4% [ 9 ]

Total votes : 245