Sky Regional Pilot Contract

[Gilles Hudicourt]

There is all sorts of chatter about pilot solidarity.. A college of pilots...But there is definitely a lack of pride when it comes down to being offered a job at low wages...

How dare you talk of pilot solidarity and lack of pride.

[trey kule]

May I assume you are trying to make this a personal issue? Well then, let me ask you a question.
What exactly have you accomplished with all your legal challanges, petitions, letter writing, and rallying the troups, except to get everyone riled up and not thinking rationally about how to address the issue practically? No need to answer..We both know the answer.

I have been in this industry for many decades. When it comes to accepting working conditions and wages the bar is definitely being lowered almost daily. You can attack me personally but that is the grim reality of our industry in Canada...Oversupply of pilots being cranked out at the bottom end who will sell their mother to move up the ladder. And who will all cry for the government they so hate to provide them protection from themselves.'
It takes courage to walk away from a bad job to face the unemployment line, when you have a family to feed. Been there in my career.
It takes courage when you are on EI not to apply for a job with an insulting compensation package.
And despite the rehetoric about the dismal wage package here I dont think there will be a shortage of applicants..Deny that if you want, but just as with the foreign temporary pilot issue, we will see.
Yes, I dare to question pilot solidarity. Been through a merger too...everyone is all about solidarity until they see themselves moving back in senority number...Seems to me there is even a thread on this forum where some of the newer pilots are using some strong language to suggest that when we are put out to pasture from one company we should fly anymore so they can have their shot at it..Real solidarity...Take a moment and read their comments.

Some wise person said that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity..You may not like the message, but reality has a way of not alway being what we wish it to be.

In any event, Merry Xmas. ( I do hope that is not to offensive, as I sincerely mean it)

[Takeoff OK]

...What exactly have you accomplished with all your legal challanges, petitions, letter writing, and rallying the troups, except to get everyone riled up and not thinking rationally about how to address the issue practically? No need to answer..We both know the answer.

You have not once provided any solutions as to how to deal with the situation.

I have been in this industry for many decades. When it comes to accepting working conditions and wages the bar is definitely being lowered almost daily.

What was the package you accepted when you entered the industry many decades ago?

...It takes courage to walk away from a bad job to face the unemployment line, when you have a family to feed. Been there in my career.

You can't join the EI line if you walk away from a job.

It takes courage when you are on EI not to apply for a job with an insulting compensation package.

Yes it does. But I wonder how long you would have waited to bite the bullet. What about when your EI runs out?

...Seems to me there is even a thread on this forum where some of the newer pilots are using some strong language to suggest that when we are put out to pasture from one company we should (not) fly anymore so they can have their shot at it..Real solidarity...Take a moment and read their comments.

Who do you think SR is looking at for DE Captains? Seems your "out to pasture" friends may be helping to lower the bar, no? Are you going to do the same when you're in the pasture?

[mbav8r]

trey kule wrote:

...What exactly have you accomplished with all your legal challanges, petitions, letter writing, and rallying the troups, except to get everyone riled up and not thinking rationally about how to address the issue practically? No need to answer..We both know the answer.
Takeoff ok wrote;
You have not once provided any solutions as to how to deal with the situation.

Oh but he has, trey's solution is to allow it to continue and have all Canadian companies embrace the new way of doing business.
As far as what's been accomplished, one of the last things that Dan Adamus says at the hearing on the subject was basically the ministers responsible agree that it was wrong, but under threats and pressure also agreed it was too late in the season to stop it. So expect either a change in legislation(it's possible with Harper dictatorship) or Sunwings model to change for next year. Wait and see I guess.
Back to the topic, the ones put out to pasture, who likely enjoyed a long lucrative career, don't have to stop flying, but have some self respect for crying out loud. Find yourself a nice part time corporate gig that pays 70,000 and enjoy some time off, you've earned it.

[trey kule]

Well, to be clear, I never have collected EI...Took a non flying job until I could find something suitable. If you leave a job, there are other alternatives than EI, even if it means working nights at a convenience store, and days doing manual labor. Odd that it seems pilots consider only work or EI..
Maybe just not the way I was raised.

You have not once provided any solutions as to how to deal with the situation

.

Quite right, and I have no intention of suggesting anything on a public forum. Some things are better done with a little less public attention...Does not mean I am not involved pretty much more than alot ot people here. sometimes it is better not to slap someone in the face (figuratively speaking) and then expect them to change...and massive unthinking petitions and letter writing to the PM , in my opinion, fall into that catagory. The problem , you see, is in considering a course of action , you sometimes have to look at things in a way that are not popular, and actually consider people in the government to be something other than scum bags...

As to the pasture..I was put out to pasture 8 years ago...Flying is part of me, not just what I do..
And so to answer your question, I am doing it. And I plan to continue doing it for pretty much two more years. Should I give up something I truely love doing and am still able to do so some young person can take my job? I guess it is a personal decision and depends which side of the fence you are on...Read the "hypocrite " thread in the AC forum....Nice young folks. Makes one get all warm and fuzzy about this pilot solidarity .

[mbav8r]

treykule wrote;
Quite right, and I have no intention of suggesting anything on a public forum. Some things are better done with a little less public attention...Does not mean I am not involved pretty much more than alot ot people here. sometimes it is better not to slap someone in the face (figuratively speaking) and then expect them to change...and massive unthinking petitions and letter writing to the PM , in my opinion, fall into that catagory. The problem , you see, is in considering a course of action , you sometimes have to look at things in a way that are not popular, and actually consider people in the government to be something other than scum bags...

So, I know I said I wouldn't respond to you on this topic anymore but, I am extremely confused about this statement.
All along you have been advocating what Sunwing is doing as a good thing, so is what you're doing behind the scenes in favor of this so called "business model" or was I correct in saying you might be an antagonist?

[altiplano]

It seems like a strange compensation strategy. Usually, if company's want to avoid a union drive, they pay reasonably well (WJ, Honda, Toyota). If they don't mind a union, they low ball at the beginning and consider a union the cost of doing business. The way it looks, they don't mind a union drive starting day 1.

Are we talking Sky Reg or WJ Encore with this statement... Makes me wonder if WS management looked at the SR deal and carved a little more out of the Encore terms to keep the edge...

Congrats to the SR guys, your no longer on the very bottom of the barrel...

[Mig29]

We don't know yet altiplano....When is Encore going to post its working conditions? Or are they waiting for more reaction on the Sky's hiring situation?

Joking aside, when will Encore begin its hiring formally?

[trey kule]

All along you have been advocating what Sunwing is doing as a good thing

Actually, I did not ever advocate that..What I did attempt to post was that they were not doing anything fraudulant, illegal, or rule bending as opposed to what others were posting..That is not being antagonistic..It is stating my opinion of what I believe is correct.

I also attempted to put some understanding as to why Sunwings would do this..That is not implying it is a good thing...But it might have been a smart thing for them to do.

What does rile me up is that CanJet, WestJet, and, wll, TA itself are doing this, but the focus is entirely on Sunwings, or at least it was until some people starting balancing the picture being painted by the TA action committee.

I also felt that the issue was being defined by some people to suit their own agenda. Just my opinion.

Is the issue of foreign pilots bad? Well, yes and no..It is not all that crystal clear if you get by the emotions..In the short term (5 years or so), the use of temporary seasonal foreign workers makes business sense..Not to pilots of course,but companies are not in the business of making decisions based soley on their pilots needs. When it comes to permanent employment where the training costs can be amortized over more than a few months, I think we can fill the positions with Canadians.
There is a difference between the two , which some with a pro AT, anti SunWing agenda curiously like to ignore..

In any event, it is time to go and participate in the tradition of mixing egg nog with rum..Merry Xmas.

[60N30W]

[quote="trey kule"]May I assume you are trying to make this a personal issue? Well then, let me ask you a question.
What exactly have you accomplished with all your legal challanges, petitions, letter writing, and rallying the troups, except to get everyone riled up and not thinking rationally about how to address the issue practically? No need to answer..We both know the answer.[quote]

trey kule,

Gilles got people talking about an issue, while you and others may not agree with his position, and that is your right, he none the less got an issue out in the open for discussion. That discussion has even made it to the highest levels of government in our country. Is that not what living in a democracy is about?

Who out there is not thinking rationally?

Since when are Canadians afraid of the democratic process?

Regards,

M.Jackson

[mbav8r]

trey kule
First, I'd like to apologize for earlier, I should have said I can't agree with your opinion so I won't respond further.

Actually, I did not ever advocate that..

This statement seems to advocate for the practice, and in my opinion if you support it it's the same thing.

Maybe its time for AT to recognize that most of the other carriers are doing the same thing, and try and adapt their business plan to use what seems to be a rather successful model....

There have bee many facts provided, many legislations quoted, regulations provided all showing that the only way Sunwing is getting away with this is the one catch all, if the minister thinks it's in the best interest of Canadians. That's it and as I have mentioned to you specifically, if you bothered to research, ALPA Canada board has been fighting this for six years and has finally managed to get the people involved to agree it shouldn't be happening, so I'm personally hopeful about next season.

The focus is on Sunwing because they are the single biggest abuser of this, the numbers speak for themselves.
We will have to agree to disagree, because you think growing a company using, well lets call it shady business practice at the expense of other high paying jobs is okay, as long as the ends justify the means. They have the lowest paid flight attendants in the country and according to reports are making the most profits of any airline in Canada but won't share that wealth, this is not a good thing for Canadians other than a few getting richer and a lot more getting poorer.

Sorry for the thread hijack,
apparently the Encore wages are out, in another thread, I would say quite comparable to SRs wages

[trey kule]

Just a quick response as it is time to get ready for eggnog...

I hope that I have never given you reason not to respond...Debate is certainly good, and one of my original issues with this whole matter was the figurative shouting down of anyone who dared to object to the popular line of thought for any reason.

We actually may not be that far apart in our thinking.. Again I originally felt that the approach taken by some posters, was, to use your word,,shady.. They never got around to mentioning that their company was in a full frontal attach on Sunwings...and simply did not mention that their own company was doing the same bloody thing. Read some of the original posts and how people dealt with anyone who chose to object to anything. It was all about attacking a competitor and this route was just one of the paths chosen.

The ends does not justify the means by any measure, but in the case of temporary seasonal workers (something that seems to be continually forgotten...we are not talking permanent here) is that it allows a company to grow and employ literally thousands of canadians that would otherwise be out of work...that is not a bad thing, and it is something that the advocates never consider( or maybe just dont want to bring up)..Make Sunwings business model (or westjet, canjet, TA) not practical and you have a whole bunch of Canadians laid off. Better to have 1000 canadians working and 150 foreign pilots than none.
As far as the wage levels and the demand that they should share the profit, that really is a different issue so I will leave it alone.
Anway it is Xmas, and as the great Mayan leader said..".we can leave it for now...its not like the world will end"...merry xmas.

[mbav8r]

Merry Christmas to you and yours

[dashx]

So if they put a pilot in charge would that make everyone happy?

[The Hammer]

I like the seniority based on experience model. That way I can whore my self out for 50K a year , fly +1000 year for 5 years and then parachute into a much better job with better wages and be senior to the guys who started at my new airline the same time I started at "whore air" but flew less and had better wawcon.

Simply brilliant. Mike "the white" and Millard must be rubbing their hands in sheer delight.


PS At whore air I had to pay for the KY too. Can I expense that later??

In short the SR contract has some many holes and "buddy claueses" in it that "contract" is probabkly not the correct word for describing it. It might as well say at the end......"Other duties or things I make up later as assigned"

Yes I dislike the DOH system based on company but unless you are assigned a number the day you start in this industry and subsequently all industry positions are filled by seniority (and meeting min experience req'd for position as determined by the employer, within reason) I see no better system.

Lets face it, WJ & WJE sit on a time bomb depending on how they integrate their pilot groups. They are currently trying to determine if they should cut the green wire or the red wire disable the"bomb". The bomb being the AC/Jazz disfunction and loss of company culture.
I worked with a lot of people who were damn proud of their jobs and their company and made every effort to provide the best service possible. Big Brother decided it was easier to lower our standards than to bring our sisters/the mother corp up to our level of service. Jazz and it's predecessors are/were filled with great people who just got tired of getting screwed over and disrespected.

[57Driver]

Was just reading the Sky Regional contract and it doesn't seem as bad as I thought it would be. For a start up it seems well organized and well thought out although the pay does appear to be on the low side. I was not able to find and reference to any sort of pension contributions so I will assume there isn't one. I have spoken to a few of there pilots and there only complaint was how much they were working, well in excess of the 680hrs guaranteed flight pay per year.

[BTyyj]

SR just posted an ad on the aviation job ads section, and I was curious as to who, with the kind of experience required, would be willing to work for such poor wages? Are they actually going to get pilots applying with that kind of experience?

[learcapt]

Any of you know it alls bashing Sky Regional happen to see this?

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=86073

[anonymity]

Hard to miss, but in case you missed it, DaveP himself used SR as justification for Encores package. So I say, let the bashing continue

[learcapt]

Just curious anonymity....what type of position do you hold in the industry?

[anonymity]

Curious learcapt, why do you want to know? A quick search of my previous post will tell you, but I'll save you some time. FO at Jazz, with alot to lose

[learcapt]

Hey man. I was just curious if you had a vested interest in this issue or not. I truly feel for you and hope it works out. We have seen things like this happen in the industry before and it will not be the last time. It will affect a bunch of people and give opportunity to others...whether or not its fair can be debated. But to slam a company like SR and anyone who goes to work there is really ill conceived. The issue lies with AC, plain and simple. They have made certain opportunities available and a company like SR is just capitalizing on it. The pilot pay and structure is not what many would expect for an EMJ(at least not for a Captain), but it does fall more in line with many US outfits. To be sustainable in these times and keep their head above water, SR is doing what they need to. Russ Payson has always run a tight ship.

I wish all the guys at Jazz the best of luck, but I do believe that this is just the tip of the iceberg I'm affraid.

DR

[aerodude]

Curious learcapt, why do you want to know? A quick search of my previous post will tell you, but I'll save you some time. FO at Jazz, with alot to lose

Let's not forget Jazz were the ones that started this entire SR operation by crewing 757's for thomas cook and became one the lowest paid 757 drivers in the industry.

[anonymity]

You really don't have a clue do you, status pay has been debated over and over so I won't bother with that.
"AVEOS failed to diversify" Are we(Jazz) supposed to sit by and wait for the axe to fall then.
For the record SR exist because when Jazz pilots voted 98% in favor of striking, Roveniscue decided AC would not be in that position again, where one group of pilots could shut them down. We were warned and he came through with his threat, with thanks to ACPA.

[teacher]

Curious learcapt, why do you want to know? A quick search of my previous post will tell you, but I'll save you some time. FO at Jazz, with alot to lose

Let's not forget Jazz were the ones that started this entire SR operation by crewing 757's for thomas cook and became one the lowest paid 757 drivers in the industry.

Interesting, Sky Regional was started because Jazz payed better wages to our 757 pilots than hared the wealth with the entire pilot group than ACs LCC does for 767 pilots. Interesting theory but dumb none the less.