Air Georgian Cadet Program

[BTyyj]

..

[Oxi]

-deleted-
oxi

[Leathersack]

A. By introducing more innovative programs like the cadet and mentor programs, increased recruitment efforts of experienced FO’s from 703 and 704 operators and introduction of a program focused on direct entry captains. - So by trying to do what they have previously done and still can't meet demand. Experienced fo's to goto Georgian to make 27k and a 12k bond no less. And direct entry captains? okay....

For one Georgian can't possibly run with first officers stuck in the right seat for 4 years.
A. The Cadet FO’s will gain PIC time either by way of a LOA or by building time outside of GGN while employed as active. Both scenarios are covered in the conditional offer of employment. PIC under supervision is another avenue available. The Cadets should have about 700 hours B1900 PIC by the time they transition to employment with AC. AGL will continue to hire experienced FO’s as well as mentor FO’s. This program is only one stream for AGL and AC it is not a catch all program. - Okay so what Jazz has already been practicing....700 PIC hours of 1900 time after 5 years, I don't see the benefit. AGL has hired fo's at 1500 hours who got there in 3 years and had upgraded in just 9 months. So that's Captain in just 4 years and somewhere around 3000hours at 5 years and a nicer salary. The candidate would still pay for their own schooling, however on their own terms.

They can't keep captains now. And f/o's start at 27k/year. That's pretty hard to pay back 60k.
A. 27K is a competitive wage for B1900 FO’s. - I don't think so and if you actually work it out it's closer to $11.25/hour.

People at Georgian are looking to start their career because Georgian is just another stepping stone. What about AC hiring just 4-6 pilots this year from Georgian?
A. This is not factual - well I do know that previous years of 2010 and 2011 were much higher. So what are the statistics?

This program doesn't guarantee a spot at AC, does it?
A. The conditions to transition from a conditional offer to a firm offer are listed above A-H. Note: The conditions of item H are also completed as part of the selection process. Although a passed AGL medical upon acceptance does not guarantee a passed medical in 5 years but that condition would exist in any event upon undergoing the traditional interview process. Same as the ability to hold a RAC. - So the answer is no it doesn't.

A-H
A 2000 hours as an First Officer - Shouldn't be hard to do cause you have to stay for 4 years.
B So if they don't do well they get cut loose?
C thats a given
D Okay so no talking back
E don't call in sick
F wow really?
G share information....got it
H healthy alrighty

They hired more from Skylink, Jazz and other places alike. Why? Because Georgian would have to cancel flights? Because it only takes 2 weeks to resign and it takes a month to train up a new f/o and get them online? How will the flow from f/o to Captain to AC work?
A. This is not factual - although there is a high amount of coordination between the two operators to ensure the timing works. This is a double edged sword as sometime we get a lot of notice but other times we are a quick resource for filling last minute spots. - Sure it's factual. AC was interviewing 20/week 80/month and filling ground schools of 20. So how many were from AGL?

The 1900's are working hard. Are they going to continue to just run 1900's for the next 10 years?
A. Our current fleet consist of B1900’s and we plan to operate them for an extended period. Beyond that many scenarios exist all of which are totally speculative. - Where is the growth? So just 1900's?

How about the pairings and the flying? Long 5 hour breaks, surprise extensions and 12-14 hours days are normal. And what about the union? An in house union? Maybe not the best. Georgian 4 years ago use to have good overnights, morning and afternoon shifts, decent hotels, decent reserve coverage and extensions and reassignments were unheard of. Great company but what has happened in the past 4 years?
A. YYZ does come with a pretty tough schedule because of the mix of transborder and domestic flying. YYC and YHZ tend to offer more relaxed pairings. There has been no change with the union. Hotels have not changed. Again YYZ is more prone to extensions and reassignments. - Always great for a 6 hour extension. In house union=control. Hotels have changed.

"Of course this is not a guarantee" - And what happens if they don't?

Most pilots go to Georgian with 1500 hours so you might sit right seat for a year and a half and then have a shot at the left seat to make 53K/year. And then after 3 years be looking forward to AC, Westjet, Jazz and now Sky Regional. As a cadet you limit those options and at the end of day there is still no guarantee of getting on at AC.
A. Although we don’t see why one would choose this option and not want to go to AC there is nothing binding the candidate from applying elsewhere, otherwise, provided conditions A – H are met there is no reason to apply anywhere. In your scenario above assuming it took you 1.5 years to get your license at least 2.5 years to build your time and 3 years at GGN that gives this program a 2 year advantage. - No 2 year advantage. Faster to do it privately with less stress.....

Well said Ikarus. Final thoughts. It's not all roses. Big commitment for a big maybe. The 60k does include housing and Florida nice! Would like to see the numbers. How many people are you looking for? How many per year? Oh and is this all a Canadian Licences or is there some conversion to be done too?

Good luck

[Sulako]

This program seems pretty straight-forward, but I had to remove a couple of nasty posts. Next time is a vacation for the posters.

Please play nice - this thread is for information, and not for venting your spleen.

[ggn]

And what if we already have a ppl

I have the same question.

If you have a PPL and are interested in the program you may apply by sending your resume and cover letter to cadetprogram@airgeorgian.ca. Any other questions you may have regarding the Cadet Program can also be sent to that address.

[planeless]

The cadet program could work out really well for some people. If you are seriously considering investing 60k to work for ggn you should probably do some research of your own and talk to the pilots that work there before you do so. It might not sway your decision but it will give you a good idea of what the next 4 years of your career will entail.

[cj555]

Hi ggn,

Any idea on a rough timeline of when interviews for the program will commence and when offers to successful candidates will be given?

[ggn]

Hi ggn,

Any idea on a rough timeline of when interviews for the program will commence and when offers to successful candidates will be given?

Interviews will be conducted in April and possibly as early as March. Finalists will then undergo a series of cognitive and psychological tests to determine their suitability as a candidate. We will notify those selected for the program in May.

[cj555]

Thanks for the info ggn.

I just have a few more questions if you don't mind:

1. During the 4 years at Georgian, will there be the opportunity for the candidates to upgrade to Capt on the B1900 if they meet the Air Georgian upgrade requirements?

2. What happens in the event that 4 years from now, Air Canada isn't hiring? Will the candidates be released from the contract to either stay at Air Georgian, or move somewhere else?

[ggn]

You should be upgraded in 36 - 40 months so you will have 700 plus hours PIC at transition time.

After flying for AGL for 4 years you are offered a position on the NEXT ground school AC runs so if they are not hiring you just wait as you are next in line.

There is no contract with AGL or AC. You are free to seek employment at any company, the only caution would of course be that it may be pretty tough to circle back to employment at AC or any of its partners if you leave the program early.

[ggn]

The cadet program could work out really well for some people. If you are seriously considering investing 60k to work for ggn you should probably do some research of your own and talk to the pilots that work there before you do so. It might not sway your decision but it will give you a good idea of what the next 4 years of your career will entail.

You are not investing 60k to work at GGN. You are paying 60K for your flight training. Payment for training is paid directly to Flight Safety. You receive 2 conditional offers of employment prior to starting your flight training.

[tbaylx]

The cadet program could work out really well for some people. If you are seriously considering investing 60k to work for ggn you should probably do some research of your own and talk to the pilots that work there before you do so. It might not sway your decision but it will give you a good idea of what the next 4 years of your career will entail.

You are not investing 60k to work at GGN. You are paying 60K for your flight training. Payment for training is paid directly to Flight Safety. You receive 2 conditional offers of employment prior to starting your flight training.

Interesting program...what does GGN get out of all this since it seems to me that they will now get lower experienced F/O;s in the right seat?

[ggn]

The cadet program could work out really well for some people. If you are seriously considering investing 60k to work for ggn you should probably do some research of your own and talk to the pilots that work there before you do so. It might not sway your decision but it will give you a good idea of what the next 4 years of your career will entail.

You are not investing 60k to work at GGN. You are paying 60K for your flight training. Payment for training is paid directly to Flight Safety. You receive 2 conditional offers of employment prior to starting your flight training.

Interesting program...what does GGN get out of all this since it seems to me that they will now get lower experienced F/O;s in the right seat?

AGL has had success in hiring great pilots from a lot of different backgrounds and experience levels and the goal of this program is to add another stream of pilots. We are very happy with the mentor pilots that we have hired and the goal is to base the cadet program after the mentor program - both sets of employees will have similar experience levels. We have had a few years of data now with the mentor program and have 100% confidence in both programs.

[planeless]

Sorry, I see that the money goes towards your pilots licence. I still think that anyone interested who are New to aviation should do some homework on the industry and work place that they plan to spend 4 years at. It's a great opportunity for young people getting into flying but it doesn't hurt to be well informed.

[HM123]

When would the training start at FlightSafety? Thanks.

[cj555]

I believe training will start in Sept in Vero Beach, Florida for successful candidates.

[cj555]

Hi ggn,

I was wondering if you know how many candidates are planned to be accepted into the program this year, and going forward?

[BTyyj]

--EDIT.

Removed due to request from person i share this account with. Brett

[rudder]

AGCP?

I would never suggest that my kids consider this program, particularly because it is US based training. What - are there no such facilities in Canada? This type of initiative should be partnered with an existing college/university program based in Canada.

At least that way the individual has something substantial from a diploma/degree perspective to show for their $$$ spent and can take advantage of education and training subsidies that already are in place for residents. Notwithstanding the debate over the merits of hiring ab initio pilots, Jazz already hire a handful of aviation college graduates each year so it is not without precedent.

The AGCP is neither a good investment of time nor money from a candidate perspective. Imagine how long it will take to pay back $60,000 on GGN/AC new-hire wages. Better hope that mommy or daddy are prepared to pick up the tab. Do yourself a favour and apply to legitimate Canadian based aviation training institutions only. And if you are an Ontario resident, there are provincial tuition rebates in place as well as OSAP loans.

I imagine the only candidates that will pursue the AGCP are the ones that could not get into a Canadian Aviation College or University program. Is that really the type of candidate that AC wants? I highly doubt that it is AC having trouble attracting qualified applicants. So I guess that must leave GGN as the operator that is having a problem in this regard or combined with a significant pilot retention problem.

Indentured servitude is NOT the solution to the problem.

[lov2fly]

AGCP?

I would never suggest that my kids consider this program, particularly because it is US based training. What - are there no such facilities in Canada? This type of initiative should be partnered with an existing college/university program based in Canada.

At least that way the individual has something substantial from a diploma/degree perspective to show for their $$$ spent and can take advantage of education and training subsidies that already are in place for residents. Notwithstanding the debate over the merits of hiring ab initio pilots, Jazz already hire a handful of aviation college graduates each year so it is not without precedent.

The AGCP is neither a good investment of time nor money from a candidate perspective. Imagine how long it will take to pay back $60,000 on GGN/AC new-hire wages. Better hope that mommy or daddy are prepared to pick up the tab. Do yourself a favour and apply to legitimate Canadian based aviation training institutions only. And if you are an Ontario resident, there are provincial tuition rebates in place as well as OSAP loans.

I imagine the only candidates that will pursue the AGCP are the ones that could not get into a Canadian Aviation College or University program. Is that really the type of candidate that AC wants? I highly doubt that it is AC having trouble attracting qualified applicants. So I guess that must leave GGN as the operator that is having a problem in this regard or combined with a significant pilot retention problem.

Indentured servitude is NOT the solution to the problem.

I could not have said it better myself!

[genetic jack hammer]

GGN is offering their pilots $10,000 to stay....some sort of a retention bonus.

[TheStig]

ggn thanks for taking to time to come on this forum and answer some questions. I have a few if you don't mind? For what it's worth I think this program could prove to be an excellent and expedient path to Air Canada for those who are interested in joining, but based on past precedents with 'flow through' arrangements there are several things which should concern those about to sign up.

Unfortunately not everyone who sets out to become a pilot is able to successfully do so, Air Canada currently does not conduct simulator evaluations in its hiring process as the pilots hired all have thousands of hours of experience and only a very small number of pilots don't successfully join the line after being hired. Will the hiring process used in this program contain some sort of flight testing prior to being hired? Or will the flight training be conducted in more of a military style, whereby pilots are 'washed out' if they cannot meet training requirements as their training progresses? Which raises questions about the $60,000 commitment...

Personally decided not to pursue this program for a variety of reasons, and I felt I should post some of them on here so to help others make their own decisions. This program is definitely not for everyone.

1. Previous flight training isn't credited, meaning I would have resultantly wasted $15 000.
2. Flight training is done in the US, meaning that a conversion is necessary, plus I wouldn't experience some of the adverse weather conditions I found in Canada as a PPL student.
3. Going directly from 250hrs to right seat on a 705 ops means I would be missing out on a lot of good experiences.
4. Hand-flying skills won't be as proficient as someone who went up north and knowledge won't be as proficient as someone who instructed.
5. This route is very limiting, meaning that I would be stuck in 705 ops for the rest of my career and within two specific companies.
6. Industry is in very good shape right now, with guys getting on at ACA with relatively low time, so if I decided to go that route, it wouldn't take too much longer in comparison to this program, while I'd have better experience and hand-flying skills to show for it.
7. Agreement illustrated on the cadet website has many possible loopholes; these companies aren't trying to do me or anyone else a favor.

Frosty thanks for sharing your reasons with us, insight from those with 150 hours is just as valuable as that coming from pilots with 15,000 hours, but if you don't mind me being critical, I think that some of your points aren't very valid.
1. It might be, have you asked?
2. Licenses transfers are cheap and easy, and you'll get all the weather you can handle after rejoining GGN. Generally it's advisable for sub-200 hour pilots to avoid marginal weather as much as possible. Sunny clear skies in FLA will allow you to complete your training quickly and avoid all of the delays in your training you've no doubt come across thus far.
3. For sure, if you like washing, towing and fueling airplanes around in -40 this isn't the job for you, I'm not being sarcastic if you wish to contribute to the 'Pics from a swamper' thread in the near future this is not the right path and you've made the right choice.
4. Do GGN's 1900's have autopilots? Once again, not sarcastic.
5. You can always quit, but why would you plan to do that from the start? But there is some logic here, absolutely not the most interesting career path.
6. You can probably count on your fingers and toes the number of pilots at Air Canada who've joined in the last 2 decades who made it on board 4 years after they started flying for pay, and none of them had jobs waiting for them.
7. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT

Rudder,
I agree, it's a shame that there isn't a competitive program available in Canada. But I hope you can agree that it is not Air Canada nor GGN's civic duty to utilize a domestic FTU.

[ggn]

Thanks to the poster who gave us reasons why he did not apply. This program is not for everyone, the program is designed specifically for people who want a career working at Air Canada. If you have doubts that is what you want then you are right in looking at other programs.

The the fellow who posted about his child, I think a bit more research on your own would give you some more insight into the programs that are currently offered. For example Air Georgian has had a mentor program with Seneca and UNB for several years and hires directly from the graduating class. Both the mentor program and the cadet program are great options, each with a different value proposition. The Jazz Seneca program is also a fantastic option and offers great value.

For clarification, AC and AGL looked at several Canadian schools and weighed the pros and cons through a formal RFP process. At this point in time the FSI option offered the best solution for a number of reasons. AGL has committed to work with a number of Canadian flight schools so their programs can be more competitive in a cadet format.

[rudder]

Rudder,
I agree, it's a shame that there isn't a competitive program available in Canada. But I hope you can agree that it is not Air Canada nor GGN's civic duty to utilize a domestic FTU.

I am not concerned about either GGN nor AC - they are big boys and can take care of themselves. I am concerned about the poor sucker that actually writes a cheque for $60K. What will they have to show for it?

If you have access to that kind of money, go to the UWO Aviation Business school and graduate with a University Degree and a commercial pilot licence with multi-IFR. Or better yet, save yourself tens of thousands of dollars and go to one of the community colleges that have Aviation Programs.

At the end of the day if all this is about is a guaranteed (?) job at AC then it is nothing but a glorified PFT program. And if that is all that it is, then why not have GGN/AC sign the $60K cheque and have the pilot simply sign a bonding agreement? I am sure that after 4 years at GGN then another 4 years on new-hire pay at AC both companies will have gotten their monies worth.

I like the concept - I dislike the actual program. It could have been much, much better.

[Mig29]

Frosty,

with all due respect, you still have a long way before you grasp (if anyone can ever do it) the state of our profession at this or any future time. You obviously lack flight and working experience in the industry so I don't won't hold it against you. We all were in your shoes.

This program does have it's potential and some drawbacks. Price, a bit too steep, if you consider that you can go to select Ontario flight colleges and walk away with a CPL with around $20,000. And you will receive some really good flight training there. But then again, a "guaranteed" advancement to a two crew high performance twin turbine after 250hrs is not that bad of a deal either. And if your stars all line up, you may be at Air Canada soon after.

As for hand flying, you won't have to worry about that at GGN as 75% of their 1900 fleet is lacking autopilots (And some still don't even have a lavatory yet ). You will fly in some of the busiest airspace in Canada as well in some uncontrolled, shorter runway aerodromes.

Good comments from Rudder and Stig as well.

Cheers