Would you work at Encore?

[7thirtyseven]

Will it be a 185?

[7thirtyseven]

Or a 777?

[7thirtyseven]

Perhaps the good old dash?

[piggy]

I remember the days when AC connector interviews had the question"do you want to work for the regional just to get to mainline?" Human nature-short memories and history usually repeats. I hope the pilots getting hired at mainline right now are being told in their interview, you will have encore pilots ahead of you on the seniority list as they are frozen at encore.

[North Shore]

I wonder if seniority is really top of the list in the minds of people going to WJ or WJR? Personally, I think that lifestyle and pay issues are at the top of the list...

[FICU]

I found this statement to be both true, and also somewhat interesting. It does seem to actually support the premise that perhaps the mainline WJ pilots should have worked harder to advocate for better wages at Encore. (Bolding in the quote is mine.)

This is the genius in empowering all WJ mainline employees as "owners". "Owners" think of the value of the stock, how much profit share they can get, and doing what they can to save the company money. I'm sure the majority of "owners" are more than pleased at the pathetic wages and much lesser benefits and ESP the Encore employees are faced with because it saves the company money. So you can conclude the "owners" are sacrificing the Encore employees in order to put more money in their own pockets.

If a 737 pilot cannot bring more value to the company than a less-experienced Dash 8 pilot, why should the company pay them (so much) more? I strongly suspect that this will be the question on the minds of WJ financial types going forward. Particularly as the mainline matures and more and more employees reach the upper end of the pay scale.

And this is the slippery slope they are now looking down.

[complexintentions]

I wonder if seniority is really top of the list in the minds of people going to WJ or WJR? Personally, I think that lifestyle and pay issues are at the top of the list...

Seniority IS lifestyle and pay.

FICU, not trying to point fingers at WS per se. All airlines have thrown junior employees under the bus, it has ever been so. But in doing so, it does make glaringly obvious that it has been tacitly accepted by the WS pilots that the WJR pilots are "worth" less, from a salary point of view. The problem is, it begs the question for those who dole the wages: if a DHC8 pilot will work for wage A, why should a B737 pilot get paid wage B? To the same destinations, in the same markets? All of the pressure will be on mainline wages to fall, not for Encore wages to rise, and the company knows it.

Methinks there was more than one motivation in starting a low, low-cost feeder to a low-cost airline.

Just my opinion.

[Go Guns]

Seniority IS lifestyle and pay.

Only for those who have it.

[North Shore]

My understanding is that one of the starting points for Wj was that there was no seniority - everyone got the same crack at holidays, so that the junior guys didn't always get the sh!t end of the stick when it came to working things like Christmas, etc..

And personally, while more pay is good I guess, one has to ask at some point "how much is 'enough'?" I had just as much fun with my kids (as did they) on a road trip to Tofino in a tent as we did on a family trip to Mexico costing ~20 times as much...

[Bede]

I'm sure the majority of "owners" are more than pleased at the pathetic wages and much lesser benefits and ESP the Encore employees are faced with because it saves the company money. So you can conclude the "owners" are sacrificing the Encore employees in order to put more money in their own pockets.

That is complete bullshit.

[newcomer]

I'm sure the majority of "owners" are more than pleased at the pathetic wages and much lesser benefits and ESP the Encore employees are faced with because it saves the company money. So you can conclude the "owners" are sacrificing the Encore employees in order to put more money in their own pockets.

That is complete bullshit.

No it isn't. Just have a look at the comments and excuses of the Westjet's pilots here on this forum trying to defend those pathetic wages...

[FICU]

That is complete bullshit.

Your opinion... I said majority of owners not pilots... do you think all the WJ employees care what wage Encore pilots and support staff make? Of course not, they only care that the company saves money to put back into their pockets... that's just part of being an "owner".

[Legacy]

I'm sure the majority of "owners" are more than pleased at the pathetic wages and much lesser benefits and ESP the Encore employees are faced with because it saves the company money. So you can conclude the "owners" are sacrificing the Encore employees in order to put more money in their own pockets.

That is complete bullshit.

No it isn't. Just have a look at the comments and excuses of the Westjet's pilots here on this forum trying to defend those pathetic wages...

Bede, agreed. They dont see the posts on the wjpa website about pushing for one list, etc. Let characters like this FICU think what they want. Not worth wasting your time trying to convince him/her otherwise.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

I guess the way the formatting looks in preview doesn't really look the same in the postings however you should be able to work it out.

Glass Half FULL year:

$68/hr multiplied by 90 hrs equals $6120/month.
$6120 multiplied by 12 months equals $73440/year.
If ESOP equals 10% then employee will earn $7344.00 in employee match.
If employee works 1 day of OT average per month then employee will earn $5508 (assumption =(68*150%*4.5 min day)*12))
If WestJet continues to make a profit, profit sharing randomly guessed at $5000 per year.

Therefore, $73,440/year PLUS $7344.00 PLUS $5508 PLUS $5000 = $91,292 / year

Glass Half EMPTY year:

$68/hr multiplied by 70 hrs equals $4760/month.
$4760 multiplied by 12 months equals $57,120.00 /year.
If ESOP equals 10% then employee will earn $5712.00 in employee match.
If employee works 1 day of OT average per month then employee will earn $5508 (assumption =(68*150%*4.5 min day)*12))
If WestJet continues to make a profit, profit sharing randomly guessed at $5000 per year.

Therefore, $57,120.00 /year PLUS $5712.00 PLUS $5508 PLUS $5000 = $73,340.00 / year

My bet, once things are up and running you are looking at around $85K for year #1.

While that may be the amount of money the government charges you tax on, I'd be careful about using it to calculate whether or not you can afford to take the job. My company gives me a percentage of my salary as a supposed retirement fund and in good years I get a bonus/profit share but I certainly don't add those in when I figure out how much money I earn and can afford to spend. If I did I'd retire penniless.

You're probably going to want to be saving both your and the company's contribution to ESOP for retirement. And while profit sharing may be a regular thing you: can't count on it, don't know how much it will be, and it isn't paid monthly so won't help you pay monthly bills.

So as far as affording to live, based on your glass half full and half empty years:

$68/hr x 90 hours = $6120 / month - 10% ESOP = $5508/month = ~$3800/month after taxes.
$68/hr x 70 hours = $4760 / month - 10% ESOP = $4284/month = ~$3000/month after taxes.

That is the cash you'll have every month to pay your bills with, and that should be what you make your decision based on.

If you can afford to live on that then you will get the added bonus of $952-$1224 of WJ stock into your RRSP every month (If you don't put it into an RRSP your taxes will be much higher and those net salary estimates above will be much lower). Plus you'll probably get some profit share.

[Bede]

I have gone on the record here and defended the pilots wage scale. As mentioned many, many times, WJ is an underpromise, over deliver type company. I earn far more than what I first figured when I did the math before coming to WJ. WJE will be no different.

My concerns are one list and low-level (CSA&FA) wages. We need to ensure that every WJE pilot has the opportunity to end up with the lucrative jobs that we have. WRT the CSA wages, if you pay Tim Horton's wages, you'll get Tim Horton's employees. We simply cannot afford to have substandard CSA's and FA's at WJE. Teal Kool-Aid only goes so far in attracting decent employees and it's not like these employees have some sort of light (ie WJ pilot wages) at the end of the tunnel.

[complexintentions]

Bede,

Appreciate the comments. As I said I wasn't taking a shot at WS pilots directly, I do know that many pilots expressed concern over the wages at Encore. In the end, it's management's call.

And no one expects junior employees or a new startup to make MORE than established employees. But I think you've correctly identified that low Encore wages are a threat to mainline WestJet wages. It isn't a small differential, it's pretty glaring, especially since "the mainline pilots add no value compared to the regional pilots". (To the company's way of thinking!) Bear in mind that the easiest way for the company to combat flow-through is to make it less attractive, and there are only two ways to do that: pay Encore pilots more, or pay WestJet pilots less. (Productivity gains, ESOP tweaks, wage freezes, whatever. I work for cost-cutting masters!)

Which one is more likely going forward, especially given the financial climate?

[encore]

Bede got it just about right. Pay is about 3000/month all in. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, not more than a hundred or so. They put 70-90/month in the contract, its always 70, and no change expected while line indoc and consolidation are done. most guys are working 20 days a month, most of the days are under 3 hours credit, some are as low as just over an hour. The commuters are hating it, single days off here and there, and 20 days a month, I would not expect to commute.

Some guys were told one list before they got here, then told it wasn't when they got here, you start from both bottom of the pay scale and list when you slide over, might change. Most were expecting the Westjet experience but its not. No one has heard from the WJPA.

With 50 guys hired, and 25% hiring ratio, there are 200 Westjet spots before you will get a shot, probably a couple years, I might just hold out for the 37, and skip this place. Make some money while you wait. Everybody expected the money to be better.

I expect they are going to freeze 37 hiring to fill encore, don't bite, they are already complaining about retraining costs to move over to the 37 and want to restrict us here.

Good luck.

[KAG]

Some on here seem to think we WJ pilots sold out encore to pad our own pockets - you who think this way haven't a clue. I can assure you we have been very vocal (flow,pay) but we had NO say outside of voting in the concept.
We have no say, none, never did. We voted in good faith and this is what we got, a lesson learned.

That said if I had 3500 hours i'd be applying for encore. The potential upside is tremendous, just expect some growing pains.
Oh and we're pretty vocal about getting some things fixed. A lot of WJ pilots came from the regionals and know what it can be like.

[Kosiw]

At least you're being honest KAG....do the WJ pilots feel like they have been "had" by G.S. who always appears to be 3 chess moves ahead ?

[KAG]

I wouldn't say "had" Id say what we expected and what Greg expected were two different things.

[Bede]

At least you're being honest KAG....do the WJ pilots feel like they have been "had" by G.S. who always appears to be 3 chess moves ahead ?

I still support the WJE concept. However, our pilot group as represented by the WJPA really needs to start thinking critically and asking the tough questions and getting the answers in writing. Being less naive also wouldn't hurt. Gregg has been honest with the employees but he doesn't volunteer information that does not serve the purpose of selling us his idea. Sadly when someone starts asking tough questions, you get accused of not liking WJ or the job- and that's not coming from management- it's coming from a couple WJPA reps. I have more faith in management than I do in a few guys in the WJPA.

So no, we haven't been had, but Gregg is 3 steps ahead. And the only reason he is 3 steps chess moves ahead is because we still think it's a game of checkers.

[Red1]

I think your giving Greg way to much credit. Don't get me wrong he a smart guy. but I am pretty sure he doesn't sit in his office figuring out ways to game the pilots. With Encore flow the only thing that was ever mentioned was 1/4 that's it.