Ramp Job in Yellowknife with Northwright air

[xsbank]

So, as a ramp graduate, can you honestly say you learned anything after the first month? Ramp work is unskilled labour. Presumably you did not fly for a year so you paid for a useless medical and waited hopefully, stressed that you might be a ramp rat forever. Did that feel good? Nobody, except Candians, are expected to slave as an office worker or a rampie before they are allowed to be what they have trained for. I happen to think that is wrong. I can see being hired as a pilot who works the ramp while he is being checked out, but none of you seem to be able to see the distinction. Of all of the clients I have flown with, throughout the world, only Canadian pilots worked on ramps or were dogsbodies before they flew for a living. Our model is distorted and you should be annoyed that you allowed yourself to be exploited while somebody became prosperous on your cheap labour.

[xsbank]

" Specificly, who will rampies be? Professional ramp guys, happy to load and fuel permenantly?" Yes. paid properly, working proper shifts.

"And what would be the typical entry path into a 703 op for a newly minted 250 hr pilot?"
Hired to fly company aircraft, under supervision, either in the left seat or right, what's the difference between starting to fly when you walk in the door or waiting for a year after ramp work? The only difference is you were taught to fuel and load all at once instead of during.

"How would they get from 250hrs to professional? And no, being part of a society of professional pilots doesnt make one professional. You cant be a professional if you cant get a job."
You are a professional once you are awarded your commercial license. I'm not discussing a society here, that's beaten to death elsewhere. Think of a medical school graduate - he is a professional in his field before he gets his first job - he is capable of performing his trade under supervision.

"Im honestly curious, since I just cant quite picture how it would work. A flight school couldnt have taught me what I learned on the ramp, swamping, etc. and while there are a few, I dont think there would be a surplus of permenant ramp staff."
The key is "under supervision." People already work the ramp. Not a pilot's problem. My opinion is if a person doesn't want to be a permanent ramp rat he will get trained for something else. Ramp work is underpaid and under appreciated because they can get pilots to do it for a promise; in this case they can even get pilots to pay to do it, which completely boggles my mind. If pilots refused the menial labour, they would have to find permanent rampies. Besides, companies whom I have worked for who used only permanent rampies were very efficient and the real rampies rarely made mistakes.

[Krimson]

If you can find a full time staff at tim hortons, you should be able to find a full time ramp position staff. What about the guys on the ramp at AC/WJ/Porter/etc? They are not there for an upgrade. It is only because pilots are willing to work for poverty pay hoping to fly an airplane one day making a few cents more doing it. Pay a position properly and you will have good people working there. No one has to make a career out of it, but for someone who likes to be outdoors, around airplanes and wants a job for a few years, why not?
Just because it has been done for years with hiring pilots to mop floors dangling a FO spot in front of him does not make it okay. It's just what we are used to and what some are willing to accept. (Not saying anything bad about people out who do, unfortunately it is a fault in our profession that gets exploited)

[Cat Driver]

(Not saying anything bad about people out who do, unfortunately it is a fault in our profession that gets exploited)

No:

It is individual pilots who will do anything to fly for peanuts.

Companies just love to save money.

[crazy_aviator]

Can anyone sum it up more succinctly than Cat? Supply and demand, simple as that,,, Everyone and their dog wants to be a pilot. I would take advantage of the excess wannabes if i owned an operation with often very little profits and HIGH risks !

[shimmydampner]

AvCanada: Long on idealism. Ever so short on pragmatism. Even less acceptance of reality.

[seriousflyer]

I feel like jumping into the conversation...I've worked for three years in the North directly out of flight school.

Alot of XS and NorthShore points are valid and true (IMO), expecially XS rant on general living conditions regarding money, climate, food.
First I dont like the "deal" NorthWright is swinging you. The idea of signing on the dotted line of a 4 year bond is insane, especially living in an isolated community like the Wells (after you do a good job in YK, they will move you to wells for training). I would say "HOLD OUT FOR SOMETHING BETTER". There are many operators that won't ask that of you. Working as a rampie is unfortunaly the only option in alot of the 703/704 operators, so if you have dreams of flying in Northern Canada I recommend getting a ramp job, but not a ramp job with a 4 year bond - ridiculous! That suggests to me that they have problems with employee retention.

Working and living in the North is good if you are up for adventure and want to try something completly different. Yellowknife is about the furthest I would isolate myself, its just big enough to find something or someone to do all the time. It is defenitly a working town though, be prepared to work lots of hours at multiple jobs to be able to afford a decent lifestyle, or split accomadations with multiple roomates and pool money together for a decent dinner plan. Goodside - gorgeous summers, sociable winters with great relationships built with life/flying experience that is irreplacable.

SF
Yellowknife Based

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Xsbank .... Im honesty curious what canadian aviation will look like when we reach this critical mass and are all professionals as you say. Specificly, who will rampies be? Professional ramp guys, happy to load and fuel permenantly? And what would be the typical entry path into a 703 op for a newly minted 250 hr pilot?

How is it possible that anyone would ask such a question?

Who will rampies be has zero connection with the job of flying an airplane.....zero.

Because if there was any connection between being a rampie and flying an airplane it would be included in the training to become a pilot.

Jeeses.......no wonder the industry is getting dumber and dumber as time passes.

And what would be the typical entry path into a 703 op for a newly minted 250 hr pilot?

Getting hired to fly an airplane?????

[Tuk U]

Xsbank .... Im honesty curious what canadian aviation will look like when we reach this critical mass and are all professionals as you say. Specificly, who will rampies be? Professional ramp guys, happy to load and fuel permenantly? And what would be the typical entry path into a 703 op for a newly minted 250 hr pilot?

How is it possible that anyone would ask such a question?

Who will rampies be has zero connection with the job of flying an airplane.....zero.

Because if there was any connection between being a rampie and flying an airplane it would be included in the training to become a pilot.

Jeeses.......no wonder the industry is getting dumber and dumber as time passes.

And what would be the typical entry path into a 703 op for a newly minted 250 hr pilot?

Getting hired to fly an airplane?????

What's even more evident is the sudden onset of Alzheimer's your displaying.... while technically you are correct that the "training" syllabus does not call for one to work the ramp and hang out around the daily operations.... who can argue no matter how "dumb" or "dumber" they may be.... that working the docks and the ramp etc. has "no connection"

Good grief man... retire from your throne and shut the hell up if you can't be more encouraging to the newcomers... your memory must be long gone.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Good grief man... retire from your throne and shut the hell up if you can't be more encouraging to the newcomers... your memory must be long gone.

You really think I am to old to think clearly anymore?

There is nothing wrong with my memory because when I started flying we were hired as pilots not menial labor employees, however if you think your way is better good on you.

Just because a lot of the industry takes advantage of young pilots starting out by using them as menial labor does not make it right.

You of course are as entitled to your opinions on how a pilot starts their career.

How long did you have to work at menial labor to show your employer/'s you could fly?

[Tuk U]

Ahhh now it's "menial labor"

I do agree that their needs to be a line between such labor and workin the dock or the ramp etc. I am too against abuse and I advise my son not to work for outfits that are clearly just abusive arseholes... I worked at the subject outfit when the fella that owns it now was also just cutting his teeth in this racket and we both did a lot of "other work" but it was in direct support of operations, and sometimes it wasn't pretty but it pays off when the old timer that was our boss needed to check someone out on a different type or there was a nice trip outside of the same old... they had there way of showing appreciation for being a part of the team, when you live in such places as we're talking about and in the early nineteen hundreds, there was always extra effort to gitr dun... if the boss could clean the outhouse so could I.. The young fella just starting out keep your head down and your ass up and it'll all work out but don't be someones you know what... be the first one there in the morning and the last one to leave at night it'll serve you well, don't be a punk suck either... if none of this makes sense..... get a degree.

sorry to jump all over you but a guy needs a little slap once in a while...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

menial
Listen See in ThesaurusSee in a sentence

The definition of menial describes something that doesn't require much skill or thought.

[Meatservo]

I worked the dock for about six months during my first float season. I learned a lot. I knew how to take off and land in a Cessna 180, that's about it. Watching the Cessnas, Beavers and Otters come and go, helping to get them warmed up and loaded in the morning, helping the pilots get turned around quick, seeing them docking and manoeuvring in all kinds of wind conditions, getting yelled at by the chief for trying to grab a deck bollard with a docking pole, helping the engineers with inspections and changing jugs, "swamping" on the Otter, I learned a hell of a lot about the life, the planes, the business. More than I would have knocking around in the 180? Maybe, maybe not. I did by the end of the summer wind up knocking about in the 180 and ended up flying it full time on skis. I don't regret the season on the dock, I learned a lot about some things I wouldn't have known much about till later by just flying. I thought it was a fair trade. There were a few other guys who ended up being pretty friggin' useless, and got sent down the road before they wasted anyone's time or aluminium trying to be pilots. "North Shore" was a pilot there too. I don't remember him doing much work on the dock himself mind you, but he was there to witness some of the useless tits who got sent packing before they managed to hurt anyone.

The whole "no ramp work" premise would work if there was something about a brand-new commercial pilots' license that guaranteed that its holder wasn't a fucken' retard, but all of you know, or should know, that just hasn't been proven to be the case. They give those licenses out in gumball machines nowadays, and the retards might do OK in the right seat of a 99 or a Navajo, but please, keep 'em away from the floatplanes, OK? We'll see if you can handle it once we've had a chance to see how you handle yourself on the dock.

[Johnny#5]

True dat....

[North Shore]

My attitude? What's wrong with my attitude?

I simply told the OP to head up there, see the place, and decide for herself whether it was for her, all things considered.
Much the same as I did when I met you at 'the place at the end of the paved road.' In fact I liked it so much, I came back for a repeat tour!

[Meatservo]

Sorry, North Shore. I glazed over reading some of the replies and thought I recalled you saying something about ramp work not being fit work for a pilot. It turns out it wasn't even you. I'm getting dotty in my old age. Apologies, I've edited my statement.

[5x5]

The whole "no ramp work" premise would work if there was something about a brand-new commercial pilots' license that guaranteed that its holder wasn't a fucken' retard, but all of you know, or should know, that just hasn't been proven to be the case. They give those licenses out in gumball machines nowadays, and the retards might do OK in the right seat of a 99 or a Navajo, but please, keep 'em away from the floatplanes, OK? We'll see if you can handle it once we've had a chance to see how you handle yourself on the dock.

That is so true. Even right seat is questionable as they still have a huge impact on customer service and efficient operations, both of which are critical to a small operator.
I find it somewhat ironic that the main proponents for "no ramp work" seem to be also very staunch believers that today's training is completely crappy and pilots nowadays can't fly worth beans. Yet they also feel that these same poorly-trained/low skilled pilots should directly be hired to fly a company's critical financial asset simply because they possess this apparently worthless licence.

[atmosphere]

I used to work at North-Wright. Send me a PM with your questions. Cheers!

[Cat Driver]

I find it somewhat ironic that the main proponents for "no ramp work" seem to be also very staunch believers that today's training is completely crappy and pilots nowadays can't fly worth beans. Yet they also feel that these same poorly-trained/low skilled pilots should directly be hired to fly a company's critical financial asset simply because they possess this apparently worthless licence.

Yup for sure there does not seem to be a clear answer to how best to start a pilot out on their first job..

My position is really quite simple.

If a pilot gets hired as a ramp worker the pilot should get training in the airplane on an ongoing basis from the start of their employment, not one or two years after they start work on the ramp.

[Cat Driver]

Here is another question for those of you who think it takes a year to figure out if a new hire has the necessary flying skills to fly for a company.

When a flying school is renting an airplane to a pilot who they never saw before does it take a year to determine if they are safe to rent an airplane to?

[shimmydampner]

The difference there is that the renter is the customer and most likely engaging in very simple easy flying on nice weather days. If he or she goes out and scares the shit out of themself or bends metal, it's not likely to sewer the business. They aren't expected to maintain much of a standard beyond, "Please don't break it." The performance expectations placed on them are very low compared to those of a pilot flying for hire. Furthermore, customer service expectations and the like are non-existent and their personal deportment and attitude have no ramifications on the business.
Sorry Cat, but trying to liken this subject to that of a weekend renter is way out of whack for a lot of reasons. As you know, there is much more to being a successful pilot than simply not breaking the airplane.

[Cat Driver]

As you know, there is much more to being a successful pilot than simply not breaking the airplane.

Yes of course I know that.

Once again I will say this.

If a new pilot is hired as a pilot with ramp duties or dock duties as part of the learning process and the pilot gets at least some ongoing flying that is acceptable.

But to work the ramp for one or two years before they get to fly is just plain stupid in my opinion.

[xsbank]

That's exactly what I've been saying all along. Great minds, .!

[Cat Driver]

xsbank the acceptance of " paying your dues " by working the ramp / dock has slowly crept into the path to become a pilot.

We are creatures of our environment and molded by whatever our teachers / superiors want us to believe.

Sort of like training a new dog......it will be what you want it to be based on how you train it.

You and I are from another era where working for peanuts to be a pilot working for peanuts was not part of the path to be a pilot.

When I first started flying for pay my employers gave me specific flight training in the skills needed to do the job that I was hired to do......fly an airplane.

As a further aside.......each time I moved up the ladder to different kinds of flying my employers paid for my training including my helicopter license.

Seems that in today's world that path has been erased.

[xsbank]

Yes, same with me. I started out dispatching but every empty leg, every freight haul I got to fly with one of the other guys who were actively checking me out. My boss hired two of us so one could always cover while the other flew. I have been trained on numerous types, all by the companies I worked for and have never paid for any of it. I even went to flight safety a couple of times, all on the company's dime. Only the last one asked me to stay for 2 years in exchange for (3) type rating(s) but the "bond" had no impact on my paycheque nor did I have to put up any money.

There will always be scum suckers in this industry who are trying to make a buck but it is up to the individual to resist being exploited, all in the name of making the owner wealthy. Now, I have nothing against someone taking the risk and working hard to start an air operation of some type, but as soon as you wave your lack of integrity around, as as soon as I hear the same from a pilot who skips, all bets are off and this is where the system breaks down and we get 'leavers' and we get bonds.

Just an observation, chasing the tin is ingrained in us from the beginning - the truth is, after 6 months on the new shiny a/c, it's just like the last a/c and we start looking again. What you will find is that the life-style is so much more important, stability is paramount and you will soon find you are getting into larger and more complex a/c as you progress and yet you are enjoying life more, will keep your reputation and you will be offered better and more lucrative positions. Chasing the tin leads to divorce, estranged children and ultimately unhappiness. Remember this is a career, not a hobby, and there is so much more to life than scooting through the air. Sometimes you are even better off to "get a real job" and fly for the thrills that got you in it in the first place, in your spare time, so it always remains a thrill.