Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

[Quad18star]

Just heard that they've recovered the black box. Hopefully not too long before a few more questions are answered.

[Cat Driver]

Did it have a flight data recorder in it or just a CVR?

[Cat Driver]

Did it have a flight data recorder in it or just a CVR?

[fish4life]

Just out of curiosity helicopters fly forward with a bit of a nose down attitude right ? Would having landing lights on for the whole flight not eliminate any sort of "black hole" issue as you would see the trees ?

[sky's the limit]

Just out of curiosity helicopters fly forward with a bit of a nose down attitude right ?

No. The "disk" is tilted forward, not the body. Especially in machines designed to move Corporate people like the 76, cabin attitude in level flight is important. Google a photo of a 76 taking off or landing, you will see a very distinct nose up attitude which levels off in cruise flight.

[Doc]

Personally I think it's a good idea to ground the fleet. What if a recent "upgrade " was done on all their units and this is what caused the accident? It's cheaper to ground a fleet than having to battle through the legal system (and battle your own self conscience) if another accident occurs. Liability !!!

Not to sound rude here, but. This demonstrates the fact that you're brand new to this business. If we were to ground an entire fleet every time there was an accident, who's cause wasn't blatantly obvious, we'd be putting every airplane in mothballs. There is NO indication of anything wrong with the aircraft. Grounding their fleet was a totally political knee jerk reaction by Ornge for "appearances" ONLY. This is an operation who's reputation is somewhat less than, shall we say, stellar? It proves (to me at least) that the people "pulling the strings" at Ornge don't know their ass from squat. Pretty much what I would have expected.

[Cat Driver]

Does anyone here wonder if political considerations can be part of the wording of the TSB's findings when they finally release their version of what they think caused this crash?

Or is it to tireing trying to look that far into the future.

[jeta1]

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[Cat Driver]

My question was meant to be sarcasm.

My personal opinion from past experience with them is they "ARE" political.

Canada is best defined for integrity by looking at the former head of the Prime Ministers Office, of course the Prime Minister had no idea of what was going on.

[cncpc]

Does anyone here wonder if political considerations can be part of the wording of the TSB's findings when they finally release their version of what they think caused this crash?

Or is it to tireing trying to look that far into the future.

There are certainly political considerations behind the silence on the Resolute accident.

[Cat Driver]

Once again this is my personal opinion from having been in this industry for over half a century.

I have zero faith in anything that comes out of the TSB reports, therefore they can take all the time they want before they release their reports, I can buy fiction at the shopping mall whenever I want to do some reading.

[Quad18star]

Personally I think it's a good idea to ground the fleet. What if a recent "upgrade " was done on all their units and this is what caused the accident? It's cheaper to ground a fleet than having to battle through the legal system (and battle your own self conscience) if another accident occurs. Liability !!!

Not to sound rude here, but. This demonstrates the fact that you're brand new to this business. If we were to ground an entire fleet every time there was an accident, who's cause wasn't blatantly obvious, we'd be putting every airplane in mothballs. There is NO indication of anything wrong with the aircraft. Grounding their fleet was a totally political knee jerk reaction by Ornge for "appearances" ONLY. This is an operation who's reputation is somewhat less than, shall we say, stellar? It proves (to me at least) that the people "pulling the strings" at Ornge don't know their ass from squat. Pretty much what I would have expected.

You're right , I am new to the business ... actually not in the business at all , just an enthusiast. By looking at the picture and comparing with other helicopter crash pictures, the burn trail leads me to believe that there was a fuel leak and fire. Several people have also stated that they saw the helicopter ablaze. How many helicopter crash sites have a burn trail several hundred feet in length?

Knee jerk reaction or whatever else you may call it, I personally believe it's the right decision. If it is found that it was a mechanical malfunction and that ORNGE allowed their fleet to fly , can you imagine the crap they'd be in for potentially putting other lives at risk.

[Sidebar]

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[Cat Driver]

If several people saw the helicopter on fire in flight and watched it crash straight ahead into the trees that will possibly help solve part of the cause of this crash.

[Pratt X 3]

If several people saw the helicopter on fire and crash, why was there a search for it?

[Sidebar]

If several people saw the helicopter on fire in flight and watched it crash straight ahead into the trees ...

The accident happened shortly after midnight and the Herc dropped in SAR techs at 0620.

If someone saw the helo airborne and burning, why was the search not initiated immediately with local resources? Who are these people who saw an inflight fire? Has this been reported in the media?

I think this is just a rumour.

[Cat Driver]

I think this is just a rumour.

It is human nature for people to grasp onto any rumour regardless of its credibility when they are in a state of shock after such a terrible accident as this one.

[cncpc]

If several people saw the helicopter on fire and crash, why was there a search for it?

I haven't seen anything from the media about anyone seeing it on fire before the crash. Or that anyone actually saw it crash. Cat may have other info on that.

That aside, something was burning all the way down that slash in the trees. The other thing which stands out a bit is that the aircraft seemed to be near to the ground for the entire trip through the trees, i.e. there isn't a bit of tree topping angling down to the ground and the main wreckage group. It is an unusual picture. Like the poster above said, something you'd expect for a fixed wing aircraft.

This machine went a long ways busting down trees and setting fires.

[Cat Driver]

This machine went a long ways busting down trees and setting fires.

Which could be due to contact with the trees in close to level flight at high speed and the trees in that area are not as big as you will find further south.

[cncpc]

This machine went a long ways busting down trees and setting fires.

Which could be due to contact with the trees in close to level flight at high speed and the trees in that area are not as big as you will find further south.

Yes. Looking closely at the photograph, it's not clear that the first 80% or so is burned. It may just be that clearing out the greenery and exposing the bottom bits gives it a burned look. You can see by the width where the rotor blades were chopping, then it narrows when they are broken off and then the main wreckage, at which there is definitely fire.

It seems to me they had a functioning power system and disc at the time they started to contact trees and they were under control.

[Lost in Saigon]

Yes. Looking closely at the photograph, it's not clear that the first 80% or so is burned. It may just be that clearing out the greenery and exposing the bottom bits gives it a burned look. You can see by the width where the rotor blades were chopping, then it narrows when they are broken off and then the main wreckage, at which there is definitely fire.

It seems to me they had a functioning power system and disc at the time they started to contact trees and they were under control.

The photo is very poor and I am also not convinced that the dark areas are burned out. It could be just a wet area.

[r22captain]

http://twitter.com/aartipole/status/340 ... 20/photo/1

[r22captain]

Did it have a flight data recorder in it or just a CVR?

Just a CVR, unless Ornge installed one since CHL owned it

[Beefitarian]

I think this is just a rumour.

It is human nature for people to grasp onto any rumour regardless of its credibility when they are in a state of shock after such a terrible accident as this one.

That sounds kind of silly though. If no one actually was in the area. You could just make up all sorts of things. Where's the value in that?

Even if it could be true it's just speculation.

[Quad18star]

If several people saw the helicopter on fire in flight and watched it crash straight ahead into the trees ...

The accident happened shortly after midnight and the Herc dropped in SAR techs at 0620.

If someone saw the helo airborne and burning, why was the search not initiated immediately with local resources? Who are these people who saw an inflight fire? Has this been reported in the media?

I think this is just a rumour.

As said, unfounded rumours .... but I heard second hand knowledge from someone who works at the Health Center in Moose Factory.