So it appears that the pilot thought the automation was taking care of the speed and figured it would be OK to ignore the airspeed indications and take care of other things. If all this is true then one of them should have maintained his/her gaze out the window(s) and continued the normal scan.
Great, we have three pilots flying a visual approach and all three ignored the airspeed because the automation will take take care of it, but no one bothered to fly the approach they were cleared for and accepted....great.
Another factor is that a third pilot was in a cockpit jump seat and could have contributed to a breakdown in CRM protocol. Especially if he was a senior guy.
That may get us back to cultural differences CID.....and then you will get upset again.
Great, we have three pilots flying a visual approach and all three ignored the airspeed because the automation will take take care of it, but no one bothered to fly the approach they were cleared for and accepted....great.
My point was that there was likely no scenario where three pilot should have been "flying" the approach. The guy in the jump seat should probably sit down, shut up and not touch anything. I've seen instances where a senior guy is in the jump and he actually starts touching things. "Helping" tune the radios or set up the FMS or offer advice while the PF and PNF are in the middle of a checklist.....
All very bad technique and contrary to proper CRM unless of course there is an established protocol for the third man and it's followed. Too many cooks....
I've seen instances where a senior guy is in the jump and he actually starts touching things. "Helping" tune the radios or set up the FMS or offer advice while the PF and PNF are in the middle of a checklist.....
You must be very important and have privileges most people do not have to be sitting on the flight deck of modern jets during airline operations.
Do the airlines and the companies that build these airplanes pay you big bucks to sit in a jump seat and observe how pilots and automation interface?
Just think how much money they could have saved if you had been sitting jump seat on that 777 CID.
I've seen instances where a senior guy is in the jump and he actually starts touching things. "Helping" tune the radios or set up the FMS or offer advice while the PF and PNF are in the middle of a checklist.....
You must be very important and have privileges most people do not have to be sitting on the flight deck of modern jets during airline operations.
Do the airlines and the companies that build these airplanes pay you big bucks to sit in a jump seat and observe how pilots and automation interface?
Just think how much money they could have saved if you had been sitting jump seat on that 777 CID.
Why not respond to the viewpoint, rather than criticize/attack CID?
Perhaps by "I've seen instances" he means through examining reports?
Outside of your Toulouse sim time, how much operational jet airliner experience do you have .?
Outside of your Toulouse sim time, how much operational jet airliner experience do you have .
Very little actually. I did get some exposure to the 767 with a Dutch charter airline and a fair amount of time in the jump seat with Air France and KLM because I have an Air France pilot ID card they gave me when they sponsored a couple of projects I flew over several years.
However I do have a fair bit of turbo prop time above 180.
Do I need a lot of operational jet time to know what a VFR approach looks like?
Short answer .? Yes... there is a very large difference in a "VFR" approach and a visual approach under "IFR" rules in a heavy jet in a busy environment, with all sorts of traps and very little time to try to manage them all. Especially if your company SOP's push you to rely on automation to complete the task. Full stop...Cheers! GRK
Thanks for that information GRK I had no idea that flying a modern airliner was so difficult.
I will do my best to find some other means of transportation and advise all my family and friends of the risks involved in flying in modern jets..
...the risk of good weather and being faced with a visual approach are just to high for any clear thinking member of the public to take if there is some other means of transportation.
Again.. thanks.
Looking back at how my flying career went I am happy I was not exposed to such difficult to fly airplanes as you people are.....and they are cutting your wages....incredible. just incredible.
All Cat was saying is that pilots should be able to hand fly their aircraft with a high level of proficiency. No matter what size or modern they may be. I don't think that's an outrageous desire on his or any pilots part.
Flyinthebug it is a waste of your time to try and reason with some of these posters who take advantage of thinking they are safe to say anything.
One does not have to be a heavy jet pilot to understand that accepting a visual approach to any runway means the crew should be proficient enough to fly the approach they have accepted.....also it matters not how big the airplane is when the runway and the airport keep getting higher in your field of vision you are getting lower on the approach, if the crew were blinded by some source of light they should have gone around...period...unless a 777 is not capable of going around of course.
Asking me how much flying time I have in modern jets does not mean I am ignorant of the subject of flying a visual approach.
So the only thing I can think of is the newer the jets the more difficult they are to fly.
By the way back to the A320 sim. in direct law it flew just like any other airplane on a visual approach....or did I need to do several thousand approaches to find out it really was far more difficult to fly?
Sadly...I am unable to find the "emoticon" that I want,(head in hand) but suffice to say is that I give up as well...there seems to be a separation of appreciation in regards to the VFR vs an IFR visual operation...our esteemed poster finds it satisfactory to belittle experience and time on various types, as well as a brave attempt to show us that his years as an aviator in a very different part of aviation than others are better than the experience some of us might have. I won't give it any more thought...maybe we all should agree to disagree and leave it at that. The obvious differences in aviation experience, and the lessons we have learned should be passed on to those who are starting out in the business, rather than a "me vs you and I'm better because I have more time on type or more VFR/IFR heavy jet or small operator" issue. Too bad it comes down to a sarcastic bun fight over the old "I know more that you" BS...
My wish is that the lessons we should try to learn from any tragic accident are not to pass on how excellent we are...but rather to try to leave this most excellent industry in better shape than it is now by example. Fly safe...GRK
GRK wrote:Sadly...I am unable to find the "emoticon" that I want,(head in hand) but suffice to say is that I give up as well...there seems to be a separation of appreciation in regards to the VFR vs an IFR visual operation...our esteemed poster finds it satisfactory to belittle experience and time on various types, as well as a brave attempt to show us that his years as an aviator in a very different part of aviation than others are better than the experience some of us might have. I won't give it any more thought...maybe we all should agree to disagree and leave it at that. The obvious differences in aviation experience, and the lessons we have learned should be passed on to those who are starting out in the business, rather than a "me vs you and I'm better because I have more time on type or more VFR/IFR heavy jet or small operator" issue. Too bad it comes down to a sarcastic bun fight over the old "I know more that you" BS...
My wish is that the lessons we should try to learn from any tragic accident are not to pass on how excellent we are...but rather to try to leave this most excellent industry in better shape than it is now by example. Fly safe...GRK
GRK wrote:Sadly...I am unable to find the "emoticon" that I want,(head in hand) but suffice to say is that I give up as well...there seems to be a separation of appreciation in regards to the VFR vs an IFR visual operation...our esteemed poster finds it satisfactory to belittle experience and time on various types, as well as a brave attempt to show us that his years as an aviator in a very different part of aviation than others are better than the experience some of us might have. I won't give it any more thought...maybe we all should agree to disagree and leave it at that. The obvious differences in aviation experience, and the lessons we have learned should be passed on to those who are starting out in the business, rather than a "me vs you and I'm better because I have more time on type or more VFR/IFR heavy jet or small operator" issue. Too bad it comes down to a sarcastic bun fight over the old "I know more that you" BS...
My wish is that the lessons we should try to learn from any tragic accident are not to pass on how excellent we are...but rather to try to leave this most excellent industry in better shape than it is now by example. Fly safe...GRK
Reminds me…….. Think the time frame was 1998 or 99, can’t really remember but I had the privilege to ride up front in an Air Canada A320 YHZ – YYZ (I knew the F/O well). YYZ wx was overcast perhaps the 5-600ft level. On arrival there was perhaps a 10 min delay (hold on an initial WP for the East side STAR somewhere) and I do believe there was a runway change flowing from that. My only observation if I may suggest, the crew were busy from that point as I saw it. Then again I am not qualified on type and my only experience was with TC on a C550 with some YOW trips with FMS and glass………….
