Air Canada's Embraer ERJ-175

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:30 am

WS739 wrote:Pretty shitty pay scales for those new F/O's!!!!!

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/102/11/

Thats a cool link, too bad it is the wrong one.
When you use the right one it shows a new hire EMB F/O at $42.9K and when you look at the new hire Westjet F/O it shows $39.9K

So who was it you were referring to again?

Try these instead

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/105/11/

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/96/11/

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:55 am

Ok lets clear this up.

According to a few back home I have spoken to the starting wage at AC is not what is published on that web site. What is the NEW pay scale for NEW JOINERS? There is a new pay scale is their not? I have heard it called 'B' scale.

I know a few people that are interested and will probably get called in the future and they are curious to see if they can afford to live on it in TO over a longer period of time with students loans, mortgages and kids.

Anyone?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:38 am

Hello RB211

How is the Queen these days?

The numbers on airlinepilotpay are accurate. When the "pay group" was implemented it increased the starting salary but extended its reach to include the R/P and EMB F/O positions.

It used to be simply, a two year flat salary somewhere in the 36K range. Now it is 43K first year and 49K second but you have to be able to hold 320 F/O before going on to formula, instead of getting it in year 3.

circlingfor69 · Post by **circlingfor69** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:10 am

JS

I've heard that the starting pay now is 37.9 for the first year and 42.9 for the second. That info is from the new hires on course right now.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:47 am

Hmmmm That is interesting indeed! I will try to find out.

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:25 pm

69 I think you are more correct. I think its tough for many people to even accept the job which is a shame beacuse of the starting salary. This is wrong. AC pays from mid 30's to 300K a year. Is an A340 skipper 10 times more valuable than the EMB/FO? The whole pay scale is way out of whack and I am sure many would agree.

Living in TO on $2300 a month is ok for young single types but not possible for those with other commitments in life. Skyservice starts guys on 60k so why can't AC? I know the skippers earn less.

Why not start everyone at 60K and then top it out at 225 or something of the sort. Just throwing numbers out there. It would sure make life much easier at the bottom of the pile.

JS I am booked in for tea and biscuits next Wed. Thanks for asking!

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:54 pm

To Jacques Strappe:

It appears you have no idea how the Position Group pay works. You are obviously not affected by it but you are probably one of the guys who voted for it. Most of the people who will now be forced to to accept PG pay were either laid off or not yet hired and could not vote on this big change. Thank you for messing up my Career at Air Canada.

Position Group pay is an average of what all the junior positions pay on regular formula pay. RJ F/O's and EMB F/O's get a raise in pay while Relief Pilots take a pay cut..... If you think this is good idea, then I suggest we apply this to the entire pilot group. Lets average out the entire Pilot Payroll, and then we can all get paid the same........

New Hires do NOT get Position Group pay. They start out on FLAT Salary of about $37K.
After 2 years of flat pay, they then go on Position Group pay.

Position Group pay was conceived to TRY and fix a number of problems at Air Canada. Air Canada has an extremely convoluted and complicated contract. Especially when it comes to the way it deals with crew staffing.

In the past an Air Canada New Hire could go directly to the left seat of an RJ or right seat of a B767. It was OK when they were on flat pay but after 2 years these guys starting make WAY more money than guys who were senior to them but had the unfortunate luck to be hired in to lesser positions.

Position Group pay was an attempt to rectify some of the problems, but it is not the answer....

Rant Over

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:24 pm

Ya know Saigon

I just try to say what I know. You are right, I thought flat salary had been replaced with the pay group. I will endeavour to find out directly, to be sure.

As for accusing me of selling you out, I take offense. Maybe the right thing to have done would have been to tell the company to liquidate rather than try to keep people employed long enough to come back and re-negotiate when things are better.

Or maybe we should have just negotiated a "B scale" all the way up to 340 Captain like many other airlines did.

Infact you probably complained about the 777 deal being voted down which was done in part to stop the pay group from getting bigger.

I am sorry that you that you are unhappy. Maybe you should go do something that makes you happy.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:12 pm

Sorry if I got a little personal.

Position Group Pay was not part of the CCAA concessions. It Was introduced later. And It really isn't a"B" scale. It is sort of a Socialist Scheme to make everyone "equal". So I would love it if they included 340 Captains. Wouldn't you??? In reality it is not so bad an idea. Why do we have to wait until our last years to make the big bucks.

But the problem is right now it only applies to the bottom 10% of the pilot group and that is not fair.

The subject of Position Group is very close to my heart. Just imagine if someone called you tomorrow and said.....

"Hello Jacques Strappe, we have decided that as of today you will be taking a pay cut to try and remedy some problems we are having with some junior pilots. Don't worry, you will be allowed to go back to formula pay in a year or 2 as you accrue more seniority, but you must bid a new position, OH... and if you ever go back to your old position, we will give you a pay cut again"

Please learn more about it and then tell everyone you fly with that Position Group has to be addressed as soon as possible. Ask them: "How would you react if we were put into a pay group right now?"

I am very happy the 777 deal was voted down, and I am happy that it appears as though the pilot group is finally saying "NO MORE CONCESSIONS"

I am currently on LOA after being laid off because "I am not happy"

balls · Post by **balls** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:12 pm

Lost in Saigon wrote:Sorry if I got a little personal.

Position Group Pay was not part of the CCAA concessions. It Was introduced later. And It really isn't a"B" scale. It is sort of a Socialist Scheme to make everyone "equal". So I would love it if they included 340 Captains. Wouldn't you??? In reality it is not so bad an idea. Why do we have to wait until our last years to make the big bucks.

But the problem is right now it only applies to the bottom 10% of the pilot group and that is not fair.

The subject of Position Group is very close to my heart. Just imagine if someone called you tomorrow and said.....

"Hello Jacques Strappe, we have decided that as of today you will be taking a pay cut to try and remedy some problems we are having with some junior pilots. Don't worry, you will be allowed to go back to formula pay in a year or 2 as you accrue more seniority, but you must bid a new position, OH... and if you ever go back to your old position, we will give you a pay cut again"

Please learn more about it and then tell everyone you fly with that Position Group has to be addressed as soon as possible. Ask them: "How would you react if we were put into a pay group right now?"

I am very happy the 777 deal was voted down, and I am happy that it appears as though the pilot group is finally saying "NO MORE CONCESSIONS"

I am currently on LOA after being laid off because "I am not happy"

Beg to differ. There were TWO rounds of concessions associated with CCAA. It was complicated by Rovinescu making a deal with Jazz in that picture, too. So, aside from CCAA concessions there were scope concessions. Basically the ACPA contract was thoroughly raped, as the short story. There was the foreplay that we thought was the act, then they really got to it in round two, when we got the full shaft.

If you have any doubt about the PG issues, etc, read the June, 2004 Memorandum. That is on the ACPA site, in Members section, Downloads, Contract, scroll down a bit. That included a couple of issues including deleting large portions of the contract, plus numerous MOC's of which the PG was one in that package,,,,,,,,,,,,as I remember.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:22 am

It was complicated by Rovinescu making a deal with Jazz in that picture, too.

If Jazz is such a problem why not fix it? We could have and should have done so. As for the 777s, I agree that the company again attempted to low ball its pilots, and I understand that the pilots have had enough. But, why not agree to the deal? By the time they're all on the property it will almost be negotiating time anyways and we could rectify the contract then to our advantage. And imagine if we had a deal between Jazz and Mainline in 2009! Instead there will be used widebodys and probably an attempt to send the EMBs to Jazz or more concessions to keep them at mainline. JMO

Sailorman · Post by **Sailorman** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:55 am

"And imagine if we had a deal between Jazz and Mainline in 2009! Instead there will be used widebodys and probably an attempt to send the EMBs to Jazz or more concessions to keep them at mainline. JMO"

Shhhh, don't tell ACPA what we Jazz guys already know. It would hurt their egos you know.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:22 pm

Oops! I forgot about our secret plot. ...wink wink

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:44 am

So what are your first impressions, Jaques? Are you enjoying the Embraer? She nice to fly?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:06 pm

The jury is still out. I'll let ya know. So far I do not like the harley handle bars, pain in the ass in a X-wind. It is a blend of Airbus and Boeing with an identity crisis but has some really cool features.

Looking forward to the 190 arrival in 6 weeks.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:13 pm

Are you guys all going to get qualifed on both?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:45 pm

Yes. It will be another dual rating similar to the 340/330. There are 45 190's coming and only 15 175's. I wouldn't be surprised to see them exercise 15 of their 190 options and send the 175 back when the fleet is up and running.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:15 am

I hope that I do not regret asking this question --

--when the answers proves to be ridiculously obvious... but what is this?

Canoehead · Post by **Canoehead** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:39 am

Looks like an O2 mask.

Jaques, do you find it to be in a convenient place, or is it awkward to get at?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:15 am

Yes that is the quick don O2 mask and it is located intuitively. No problem getting to it.

WJflyer · Post by **WJflyer** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:16 am

How about the poor rampers loading the jet? I was told that the rampers hate the Embraer jets.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:24 pm

Aha, thanks. I knew it'd be something obvious! Duh!

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:37 pm

"Yes. It will be another dual rating similar to the 340/330. There are 45 190's coming and only 15 175's. I wouldn't be surprised to see them exercise 15 of their 190 options and send the 175 back when the fleet is up and running"

Jaques,

Do you really think it is that easy for us just to hand back the 175's? Who really makes a decision about where and what group fly's what under the ACE banner ? Remember all these jets fall under the same deal determined by Teplitsky ( read Small Jet Allocation ). We just can't go out and say lets get 15 more 190's because we like the aircraft better. We have to make our case with the company, then ALPA (yes those Jazz dudes) and finally when that does not work Teplitsky. He is on record saying fix your internal squabbles first before you ruin my afternoon.

Heck, we are trying to prevent Jazz from getting eight more CRJ 200's from Independence Air as we have a meeting this month. And rumour of the week is the company is blown away with the range, and hauling capabilities and fuel burns of the 705. Great that's all we need is another group nipping at our heels because their plane far exceeds what ACPA ever thought it could.

On a side note my little Bro interviewed with the mainline coming from Jazz in Aug./ 6900 hrs/ 3400hrs on three types of Jets/ Emery Riddle Degree. PFO letter yesterday along with almost 88% of all that have interviewed from Jazz I am told.......... I smell a rat!

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:53 am

Actually Thrust Set, it would not be adding to the fleet, simply exchanging existing fins. I would think that Teplitski does not apply in this case. However, I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

The thing to remember also is that the only reason we have Teplitski in the first place, is not so much to with ALPA as much as it is to do with our friend Calin, who as a lawyer signed two contracts with two groups at the same time. He is not in jail but at least he lost his job.

As far as RJ200's, you find me one guy at the mainline who actually wants to fly it. Like I said before, its' like divorcing your wife but not wanting anyone else to sleep with her. Why are we wasting so much time on this issue?

Jazz with jets, big deal. They can have nuclear powered airplanes, I don't care. My only issue and it has always been my issue, are the routes. Toronto Dallas is not a "Regional Route" in my opinion, which I notice now is being done with an Embraer. The rumour of the week about the 705 is just that, rumour. If I listened to rumours at Air Canada, I would be a 747 Freighter skipper by now.

I am sorry to hear about your bro. I don't understand that one especially as according to RB211 he should be an automatic hire being related to an Air Canada pilot. Jazz is still a good place to be, in my opinion.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:07 am

Jaques Strappe wrote:The rumour of the week about the 705 is just that, rumour. If I listened to rumours at Air Canada, I would be a 747 Freighter skipper by now.

But without the rumours I have NOTHING!!