Skycare Navajo Gear up YRL Fri May 23rd

[Illya Kuryakin]

Think the Aztec had issues. Heard it might have been at least partially extended. Of course, the Aztec main gear always hangs down a bit, even when up. I've heard you can still use the brakes even if you gear up the thing.
Illya

[Big Pistons Forever]

What was the final story on the Aztec. Did they in fact first touchdown gear up, go around and then find out the gear would not go down because they had damaged it in the smash and go ?

[oldtimer]

FYI. The Apache and early model Aztec had approx. 1/3 of the main wheels exposed and you could apply brakes if required. The Springbank Aztec was a horney F model, the final model, and the main gears are now covered by gear doors, although the doors have a bulge where they fit over the wheels.

[oldtimer]

Just went through my training manual and from the picture, the airplane is a Chieftain and they can have a problem whereby the main gear can come down, all 3 gear lights will illuminate and the horn will be silenced but the nose gear remains unlocked. That is why there is a mirror on the left engine cowl. Normal SOP callout after gear selection is "3 green, handle neutral and one in the mirror".
Also, the hydraulic system is a closed system so if any gear is not down and locked and begins to retract, the hydraulic sysytem will be pressurized. One company I worked for had a nose wheel retract while taxiing and the main gears also attempted to retract, The pilots got the airplane stopped before the airplane fell on its belly. There was nothing the crew could do about it except discuss the incomplete parentage of the aircraft designer.

[PilotDAR]

the airplane is a Chieftain

Are we talking about the F Aztec, or the Navajo?

[oldtimer]

Sorry. I was talking about the Navajo in YRL.

[GyvAir]

Re the F Aztec accident from this thread http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 84#p880584, it's officially a gear failure, rather than a pilot failure.

From the CADORS:

2014-05-21

UPDATE: TSB Report#A14W0060: The Calgary Flying Club Piper PA-23-250 Aztec, C-GOSO, was operating on a local flight out of Springbank AB (CYBW). This was a non-revenue acceptance flight prior to the aircraft being added to the operational fleet. C-GOSO conducted an approach to land on Runway 35. During the initial touch down, the crew experienced a partial landing gear failure, that was evidenced by paint and propeller strikes on the runway. C-GOSO overshot Runway 35 remaining in the circuit. ....

[NotDirty!]

So how many times did the SkysCare Ho circle to check their gear?

[pelmet]

And another one...

A14W0075: The Piper PA-28R-201 (Arrow III), C-GRZQ, was conducting a local VFR flight from the Vulcan, AB airport (CFX6). During departure on Runway 16, shortly after landing gear retraction, the engine cowling partially opened. The pilot reduced speed and power and turned to land on Runway 34. The aircraft contacted the ground with the landing gear in the retracted position short of Runway 34 resulting in substantial damage to the aircraft. The pilot, who was the sole occupant, was not injured.

[pelmet]

A14C0069: The SkyCare Air Ambulance PA31-350 Piper Navajo, C-FAQR was on final approach to CYRL, Red Lake. The power was reduced during the flare and the landing gear warning horn activated. The throttles levers were advanced to initiate a go-around, however the propeller tips struck the runway surface. The throttles were closed and the mixture levers moved to idle cut-off. The aircraft landed straight ahead with the landing gear retracted. Once the aircraft stopped on the runway the nine passengers were evacuated. There were no injuries or fire, oil or fuel leaks. The ELT did not activate. During the recovery the landing gear selector was found in the up position. The landing gear was extended manually and towed from the runway. Damage was sustained to the propellers, engines, flaps and belly.

[BverLuver]

Koalemos, are there any other facts you would like to add? Seems pretty cut and dry by the CADORS.

Trey Kule, I am wondering why in a previous thread about a gear up of a Citation down south you were insistent on everyone being PC until the facts came out and even then you were critical of those that were critical, but on this one, it was ok to flame away immediately? What gives?

BL

[Chuck Finley]

At least they didn't try to cimb back and come back after the blades started to chew some pavement.

Good job.

[Koalemos]

Koalemos, are there any other facts you would like to add? Seems pretty cut and dry by the CADORS.

I have no facts; as I wasn't there, didn't interview anyone that was, nor did I have any report prior to the CADORs release.

Now that we actually have some facts, and not just 1 picture and a bunch of BS conjecture, I'd agree that it looks like the pilot(s) screwed up. I'm sure the details will be flushed out with time as TC investigates, but I don't see anything in the CADORs report that will point anywhere other than at the pilots as the cause of this accident.

It will be interesting to see how TC handles this compared to the Keystone accidents, same aircraft type and similar type of company operations. Of course the accidents were different situations, the Keystones were (I believe) two from fuel starvation, and another at North Spirit due to crashing while attempting to visually orbit in white out conditions while the runway was being plowed.

[Chuck Finley]

It does not look like they screwed up. They DID screw up. The End!

At least no one was injured. Good job to the crew again!

[cdnpilot77]

It will be interesting to see how TC handles this compared to the Keystone accidents, same aircraft type and similar type of company operations. Of course the accidents were different situations, the Keystones were (I believe) two from fuel starvation, and another at North Spirit due to crashing while attempting to visually orbit in white out conditions while the runway was being plowed.

Keystone has a hockey line of fatalities from their preventable accidents, this is bent metal and bruised egos...not a good comparator.

[Koalemos]

It will be interesting to see how TC handles this compared to the Keystone accidents, same aircraft type and similar type of company operations. Of course the accidents were different situations, the Keystones were (I believe) two from fuel starvation, and another at North Spirit due to crashing while attempting to visually orbit in white out conditions while the runway was being plowed.

Keystone has a hockey line of fatalities from their preventable accidents, this is bent metal and bruised egos...not a good comparator.

Indeed. And they got little more than a stern frown, of course my information could be out of date.

Having said that, the owner of SkyCare has a history with TC (Skyward), so they might end up getting more of a reaction than Keystone did.

[Illya Kuryakin]

At least no one was injured. Good job to the crew again!

LOL
Illya

[MUSKEG]

Nine pax + two crew. Really?? Be interesting to see where it came from and where it fueled. Of course standard weights were used.

[Independence]

I add myself to those that are torqued up over the 'learning opportunity' type comments. Passengers put their lives in our hands. Those people have spouses, children, parents etc whose lives will never be the same if we screw up. 'To err is human' doesn't cut it. We better walk out the door each morning with a zero tolerance to making mistakes even though we know it could happen.
What scares me is that some pilots seem to be saying it is ok to make mistakes. There will always be accidents but we don't have to think that it is ok and that they're outside our control.

[complexintentions]

I add myself to those that are torqued up over the 'learning opportunity' type comments. Passengers put their lives in our hands. Those people have spouses, children, parents etc whose lives will never be the same if we screw up. 'To err is human' doesn't cut it. We better walk out the door each morning with a zero tolerance to making mistakes even though we know it could happen.
What scares me is that some pilots seem to be saying it is ok to make mistakes. There will always be accidents but we don't have to think that it is ok and that they're outside our control.

Nope, this is just plain wrong. No one is saying it is ok to make mistakes. Give your head a shake - do you actually believe this crew left in the morning hoping to land with the gear up? But to deny mistakes happen - ALL THE TIME - is even more dangerous. "Zero tolerance" is a myth. The best you can hope for is to make as few as possible, and catch the ones that are made before they become something bad. In this case, unfortunately that didn't happen.

I actually feel for this crew. Yep, they screwed up. And I'm sure they knew it, with sickening, sudden realization as soon as they heard the the gear horn, and god-awful metal-on-concrete sound. But like a previous poster, I do credit them with not panicking and trying to take an aircraft with unknown damage back into the air. I think the public flogging crowd has weighed in heavily enough, so a small bit of credit where it's due.

I've talked to accident survivors and the pilots in non-fatal accidents. I knew the pilots in the Citation gear-up in BC years ago, and I can't describe the devastation that they felt. I wonder how it must be to have a hundred AvCanada assholes dogpile on top of you in addition to how you already feel. Anonymous posters who aren't required to air their laundry list of mistakes that are only differentiated by the fact they haven't been made into a picture on a forum - yet.

Being thankful no one was hurt and the damage was limited to bent metal, isn't the same as saying it's acceptable. But trying to find out WHY this happened (there's that learning that some seem to find abhorrent!) seems a lot more useful to me, than sitting behind a keyboard throwing shit like a monkey. I mean seriously, after about eight posts is anyone not convinced that Illya has a few issues?

Anyway, everyone back to eating their young. It's what pilots do, after all. As if some College will ever change that! lol

[rampman]

[quote="MUSKEG"]Nine pax + two crew. Really?? Be interesting to see where it came from and where it fueled. Of course standard weights were used.[/quote]

never seen more than 10 seats in a chieftain. including the driver. would think there would be an infant involved if it was 2 crew

[Krimson]

I add myself to those that are torqued up over the 'learning opportunity' type comments. Passengers put their lives in our hands. Those people have spouses, children, parents etc whose lives will never be the same if we screw up. 'To err is human' doesn't cut it. We better walk out the door each morning with a zero tolerance to making mistakes even though we know it could happen.
What scares me is that some pilots seem to be saying it is ok to make mistakes. There will always be accidents but we don't have to think that it is ok and that they're outside our control.

Nope, this is just plain wrong. No one is saying it is ok to make mistakes. Give your head a shake - do you actually believe this crew left in the morning hoping to land with the gear up? But to deny mistakes happen - ALL THE TIME - is even more dangerous. "Zero tolerance" is a myth. The best you can hope for is to make as few as possible, and catch the ones that are made before they become something bad. In this case, unfortunately that didn't happen.

I actually feel for this crew. Yep, they screwed up. And I'm sure they knew it, with sickening, sudden realization as soon as they heard the the gear horn, and god-awful metal-on-concrete sound. But like a previous poster, I do credit them with not panicking and trying to take an aircraft with unknown damage back into the air. I think the public flogging crowd has weighed in heavily enough, so a small bit of credit where it's due.

I've talked to accident survivors and the pilots in non-fatal accidents. I knew the pilots in the Citation gear-up in BC years ago, and I can't describe the devastation that they felt. I wonder how it must be to have a hundred AvCanada assholes dogpile on top of you in addition to how you already feel. Anonymous posters who aren't required to air their laundry list of mistakes that are only differentiated by the fact they haven't been made into a picture on a forum - yet.

Being thankful no one was hurt and the damage was limited to bent metal, isn't the same as saying it's acceptable. But trying to find out WHY this happened (there's that learning that some seem to find abhorrent!) seems a lot more useful to me, than sitting behind a keyboard throwing shit like a monkey. I mean seriously, after about eight posts is anyone not convinced that Illya has a few issues?

Anyway, everyone back to eating their young. It's what pilots do, after all. As if some College will ever change that! lol

I think we have found the most sensible post in this thread.

[pelmet]

The only comment I have to make about this incident so far is....

I wonder how it must be to have a hundred AvCanada assholes dogpile on top of you in addition to how you already feel. Anonymous posters who aren't required to air their laundry list of mistakes that are only differentiated by the fact they haven't been made into a picture on a forum - yet.

This is well said.

[PilotDAR]

It is okay to make a "small" mistake, and learn from it, providing you do that before it becomes a bigger mistake:

Ooops, I forgot to extend the gear on base = mistake. But I caught my mistake on final by checking for gear down.

I checked myself out in a Navajo (no pax, of course), as there was no one around to fly it with me. So I figured out how it seemed to like to be landed, carrying a bit of power. Fortunately, I did not make the mistake of not lowering the gear, but I DID make the mistake of flying the plane in a way that I rendered in operative, the warning system to warn me had I made a mistake. THAT was my mistake, and had slid on a perfectly serviceable Navajo, I would have looked like [well, been] a fool, and deserved it. The warning system you know is there, does not warn you. Is it because there is no warning required (all normal), or have you fooled the system? Silent does not always equal all is okay.

I spent two hours last night doing amphibian training, and believe me, a lot of time was spent on checking the gear position - because there is zero warning system! Twice out loud before every landing: "Wheels are (up/down) for landing on (water/land)". If you get to short final and have not said the words, go around. My 10 year old daughter says them to me now! (no, it was not her, I was checking out - yet...)

The internet is a harsh place, and alarmingly anonymous. It is slowly replacing the "club house" as the venue for chatter. Those two pilots, in addition to everything else they feel, are being pummeled here, but at least here, they too have their anonymity. If I passed one of them in the pilot lounge tomorrow, I would not know them. The club house of old, was not so anonymous!

In addition to the basic premise of wanting to fly safely, so trying to do it all properly, I'm too experienced on little planes to allow myself a "mistake" accident, and I sure don't want you lot going on about me.... Real motivation to be slow and through about my time in the cockpit!

I can extend to these two pilots 10% "not totally their fault", as their trainer might not have emphasized the ways to get wrong not being aware of your gear position. In the mean time, the mistake I made for my self, and recognized, seems to be about the same one these pilots made - inadvertently disabled the warning system until the last moment.

[Colonel Sanders]

in addition to how you already feel

And there it is. Remember, the pilot's
feelings are vastly more important than
the damage they have done.

In today's Canada, it's ok to bend tin and
hurt and kill people. Just don't hurt anyone's
feelings, ok? As long as everyone thinks you're
a great guy, it doesn't matter if you're a sh1t pilot.