feelings on air canada hiring

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:59 pm

Anyone that has worked in a union environment will understand why some people are getting a little anxious about not getting a call right away while less experienced guys/gals are being hired. Its called a seniority number and plays a HUGE part in how your career is going to go and what quality of life you will have. If I had been hired one month earlier, I wouldn't have had to endure 2 yrs of layoff. 8 numbers was all I needed. Things look great when all the hiring is going on but when the tide turns and things slow down, (as the always do) the higher up the chain you are the better.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:45 am

MEA has used the cadet pilot scheme since the '70's. They train you from ab-initio to fATPL in 64weeks. Line trainning is next, and you're right seat on the 321. Cost is 75k Euro, 60K bonded for type rating, once the years agreed upon are complete, the cost is voided.

http://www.mea.com.lb

Someone mentioned before that these cadets sit as S/O for a few years. I'd take that over working the ramp.

fanspeed · Post by **fanspeed** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:18 pm

once again, be happy with the position you are in.

bush pilot · Post by **bush pilot** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:46 pm

mini-me wrote

To my point of view, the question is not if low timer pilot can do the job. Of course they can, but with a lower level of safety (for a certain period of time) than with an experienced pilot. To my experience, low timer pilot usually have weakness for IFR and situational awareness. A co-pilot is not supposed to be a student pilot; he is supposed to be almost a co-captain. So 2000 hr guys… I hope it’s not 2000 hr as an instructor on light twins

.

I do not think that is fair to put all of us (2000-3000 "low time Pilots") in the same category I have 2500hrs and do not think of myself as "low time" I put my due's in and spent my time slumming it. I did my time in the bush flying 180/185/206/DHC-2 for four years not flying during the winter and having to take shit jobs to pay the bills. Then I finally got a year round gig with a slightly shady operator to get my multi time on a ho as well as flying the DHC-2 in butt F*%K Idaho to finally get out of there and get a respectable job flying a turboprop a/c going Capt. on it in two months. I have been a Capt. for the majority of my career and have taught myself quite a bit, what I have not learned on my own I have done so through co-workers or sitting right seat. My point being that I have gone through allot and think I also deserve a shot at the big tin. I do agree with the fact that you and quite a few other pilots have had to sit on your heels collecting time while the industry got better (and you do deserve a shot). So the only diff between you and me is a few years in the same position. And you are telling me that if you were to sit in the right seat of 767 right now you would not be a little lost and need a month to get used to it. I know that I would and I am not ashamed to say it. I mean do you not initially learn in the right seat on a new plane anyway?

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:33 pm

As an aside, for anyone who was considering RyanAir in the UK, check the fine print... if not already endorsed on type they will require you to get your own endorsement...

talkinghead · Post by **talkinghead** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:36 pm

Hey bush pilot

I like the way talk it shows get-up-and-go, BUT be careful 2500hr is squat in the big scheme of things.
I think it sucks that a someone like me with over 7000hrs is getting past over for someone like you, BUT thats O.K.
Ill get over it.

I think its time to re-write my resume minus a few thousand hours

bush pilot · Post by **bush pilot** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:44 pm

I didn't say you guys should't get in first, I was just saying that you shouldn't put us "little guys" down. I have put my time in aswell. Obviously not as much time as you, but I do not have a "weakness for IFR and situational awareness" as said by others on this forum!

bush pilot · Post by **bush pilot** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:49 pm

As a plus note, I have not been called yet and am happy where I am now! My only worry right now is trying to find a larger appartment for our new arrival to the family! so good luck to you

balls · Post by **balls** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:10 pm

just curious wrote:I'm not really that bent about it.

Yes, I'd like to drive a large aircraft and not have to load the damned thing.

But, it would take me under the CCAA reduced start package and pay group, till I retire to make what I make now. The ACPA concession for new hire salaries means in effect that the senior drivers are essentially eating their young. This will only set the stage for a "what about me"
mentality when they get a bit of union power.

In addition, Air Canada in structuring ACE and Jazz so that at least in pay if not in reality they are two separate entities, have created a poisonous work environment. It's had 20 years to fester, and they've done sfa to mitigate it. It was bad enough when it was red team vs blue team. Now they're just a CRM nightmare.

If I really felt the urge to drive bigger iron, I'd go WJ.

SO, are you saying that ACPA should have said "NO" to the CCAA concession package, put to them, with the liquidation gun to our collective head and risked putting the company out of business entirely.

WHAT in the hell do you think the negotiating wiggle room actually was?????? Instead the world seems to think that because ACPA members did say "NO" to further conessions for the 777/787 package that we are someone putting the company into a bad situation.

Of course, that was before oil hit $67/barrel, and now AC is looking so smart for NOT taking the 777's when half the US carriers could be TU in the next few months, with lots of aircraft on the block. Sheeeeet, this is not a seniority merger, red/blue, Jazz/mainline thing. AC is not a fun work place like it was, and it is certainly not the be-all-end-all of aviation jobs.

There's lots of good jobs out there, but there's no job security either. You take you chances. If you company is belly up, you have to look at the possibility of botl at Victoria Flying Club, or Harv's Spray Service, even if you have 20G hours. WHOGAS, you are the new guy.

balls · Post by **balls** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:25 pm

tdawe wrote:The thought of getting on a 320, knowing the FO has racked up 1000 hours scares the snot out of me. Whether hes the son of a AC Old man or not. So much for CRM, these new hires will be placed with more senior capts no doubt, to try and speed up the learning curve. So now some guy with 12,000 hours is looking across at a guy who is still wet behind the ears in his mind, you think thatll be a pleasant atmosphere to work in, one that promotes safty and open comunication? Back to "Gear up , Flap up Shut up" me thinks.

And what happened to coming up through the ranks? now if the kids got family inside he can squeze out a few students instructing at the McMaynerbery flying club, knock out his ATPL exams and hes good to go? Scary Scary thought.

And before anyone asks, Im still pounding the ground looking for my first gig, but I'd like to think I'm smart enough to smell a bad idea when it gets shat out.

You are one twisted SOB. A

Aide from the wrong spin, you have the emFAsis on the wrong syLAbull.

You should not be concerned about the low time guys on the 320, but on the EMB, or probably RJ for a while, too. The 320 Captains have likely been around for a while. Maybe not so much so for the smaller types than 320, and their commanders. If you experience issues are a concern, likely you should look to the CMA ops, maybe a dozen other carriers in Canada, too. Maybe the Jetsgo concerns of low time crews was a valid complaint after all. Should we get TC on that for more impossibly inane regs?

What is a reasonable amount of time for a jet FO? Is a jet harder to fly to you think than a turbine or overweight/underpowered prop, do you think? Should there be a minimum time for a jet commander, or jet fo?

Most importantly, and (tongue out of cheek) this is a serious question, what do you consider to be 'defintiion' of experience, and what is the difference between a 2000 hour, or 4G, or 10, 20G pilot?

As I spool down in my career, I have some definite opinions on this subject - as with many others

- but I think that this is the crux of the issue.

Is aviation safe if we move pilots from a B1900 at CMA (or similiar) to a DC9 operation without a certain amount of background experience. What is/are the situations that make the difference between landing a safe operation or some like a DC9 in the snow, plowing throught the weeds and attempting to take off again, or feeling that you have to land in a thunderstorm, with a tailwind on a wet runway in a 340?

Personally, I learn something every day I fly. I will until I stop in a short while from now. I do know that my thinking process if different than some of the apparently experienced people that I fly with. Why?

talkinghead · Post by **talkinghead** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:02 pm

bush pilot wrote:As a plus note, I have not been called yet and am happy where I am now! My only worry right now is trying to find a larger appartment for our new arrival to the family! so good luck to you

Good luck, kids are cool.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:31 pm

Good comments balls.

This AC hiring has turned the industry into what we see all the time when upgrades are comming - all the FO's chomping at the bit, and jockeying for position. For it seems everyone from the 2000 hour Fo to the 10000 hour jet CPT are on a level playing field and doing just that.
Again, it's a game of patience. Hopefully most on here will be able to say they got where they wanted to go. For me thats AC. Here's hopeing that my resume gets hit with the dart. If not I have a plan B and C.

Cheers.

centerstored · Post by **centerstored** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:07 pm

I think AC is doing what they have to do. They are hiring from a broad pool of experience, age, education, and TT. It sucks for all you "high time guys" trying to get your seniority number at AC after having built up your hours over the last 5 years...but get over it. AC, Jazz and the likes could be laying off pilots, and that would suck much worse! There is one thing that needs to be clarified. There is a big difference between a 2000 TT AC new hire with some real experience (ie PIC, multi, north, turbine) and some of the 2000 TT hires I've been hearing of lately...you know, the ones with 800 hrs of flight instructing and 1200 hours right seat PC-12. That time is barely logable. As far as I'm concerned, these guys getting in ahead of the qualified candidates is BS, they have zero relevant experience and will be lucky to get through the Type Training. How will these inexperienced pilots (and I use the word pilots loosely) ever be able to jump into the left seat of a jet at AC? This may prove to be a serious oversight, maybe not, maybe anyone can fly these machines after a few years of line flying and some quality training?

mister mofo · Post by **mister mofo** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:48 am

My 2 cents: The Canadian Airline Industry

Air Canada hasn't done a whole lot of things that make a lot of business sense, in the last 5 years. Milton has pretty much run it into the ground, and this new insane hiring policy (if it really exists) is really just another bumble. I seriously doubt they will continue to be an airline with these kind of descions. These goofy "brands" seem to justify repainting the fleet every 2 weeks with a lame new colour, Celine Dion sining away millions in advertisment dollars while the company is bankrupt, contract negotiations that baggage handlers better than pilots... Now they're going to hire "low time" guys for whatever reason... Imagine if, God forbid, some lawyer gets a hold of that fact if/when someone gets hurt on a flight? I've always wanted to work for AC, but they just do things that are really, really stupid.

West Jet makes you move to YYC and they pervert the industry with a goofy stock laden payscale. And that stock has been losing ground.

Sigh. It makes me want to start my own airline.

abc xyz · Post by **abc xyz** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:50 am

I started flying in 95 when i turned 16. Back then as is today was an emphasis to get a post secondary education. This whole notion of hours in your logbook is the only way to determine worthiness is BS. Airlines have hyped education and i guess they might feel better training a younger keener pilot with good time and a proven ability to grasp new information.

My dad got hired at 850 hrs 1st real plane he flew was a 727 now 340 Capt. AC has a world class training dept and WILL not let someone get through they feel is unsafe. Its just not good for business. All the doom and gloom bs about not qualified people is complete merde (francais for s%*t)

balls · Post by **balls** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:27 am

What is safer - a new hire r/p or f/o that is willing to learn a new system, absorb information, experience and grow, or one that already feels he (she) should be in the left seat, already feels that he has all the necessary background, and is an agro whiner complaining about all the old commanders that should just move on out?

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:35 am

centerstored wrote:It sucks for all you "high time guys" trying to get your seniority number at AC after having built up your hours over the last 5 years...but get over it...

...you know, the ones with 800 hrs of flight instructing and 1200 hours right seat PC-12. That time is barely logable. As far as I'm concerned, these guys getting in ahead of the qualified candidates is BS...

So why is it logical -- to your mind -- that a 2000 hr pilot get hired over an 8000 hr pilot, but your PC-12 F/O should never be considered over the Mr. Experienced whom you suggested?

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:57 am

balls wrote:What is safer - a new hire r/p or f/o that is willing to learn a new system, absorb information, experience and grow, or one that already feels he (she) should be in the left seat, already feels that he has all the necessary background, and is an agro whiner complaining about all the old commanders that should just move on out?

I understand your point, balls, but I think that it's a very broad generalization and unfair to anyone in this group of apparently more experienced pilots that seem to be being ignored, for the time being, by AC flight crew recruiting. Since I was a kid I've wanted to work for AC. Without getting into boring details, just about everything I've done since BEFORE high school was to make myself eligible for this job. And now, to be passed over for people who are to my mind less eligible -- and I'm not saying unable or undeserving... just LESS eligible -- well, it hurts, you know? Hey, I know that life ain't fair and that no one owes me anything... but I really feel that it negates all the hard work I've done and sacrifices I've made in my life striving towards that model of what supposedly makes one an ideal candidate.

I'm sure there are a lot of other guys on here that'd echo my sentiments. I understand, as I think we all do, that this is just the beginning, and in all likelihood anyone who wants a job will have a shot at an interview at some point over the next few years... and moreover that all the whining and moaning in the world is not going to change who AC interviews and who they do not. HOWEVER, I think you must agree that the majority of us would have just as good an attitude as any less-experienced newhire -- better, perhaps, for having put more time and effort into getting there? -- and understand why a lot of us are scratching our heads and how we are feeling. Imagine standing in a long line only to find as you approach the front that they are now taking people randomly from the back.

Wow, what a diatribe that turned into.

In any case, I very often find your posts informative and enlightening... thanks for your two cents!

Campanola · Post by **Campanola** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:37 am

balls wrote:What is safer - a new hire r/p or f/o that is willing to learn a new system, absorb information, experience and grow, or one that already feels he (she) should be in the left seat, already feels that he has all the necessary background, and is an agro whiner complaining about all the old commanders that should just move on out?

Maybe you should not mixe experience and attitude. Both can have a good attitude and both can have good learning abilities. Except that an unexperience pilote can't have the knowledge of an experience pilot. You never know when your knowledge will save lives.

quickflight · Post by **quickflight** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:10 pm

abc xyz wrote

'Airlines have hyped education and i guess they might feel better training a younger keener pilot with good time and a proven ability to grasp new information'

I'm far from one of the young guys. I was late chasing my childhood dream. There is reason for the eduaction hype. Those of us that have taken post secondary education have gained skills that those have not will find hard to grasp. Even as an 'old guy' I would challenge most younger guys to beat my ability to 'grasp new information'. I think this move to the younger is bull. I have more tooffer than most younger guys because of my life experience not because of lack of it.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:52 pm

Ones ability to grasp new information has more to do with aptitude than age. Attitude is also age independent.

Guys who whine about us younger pilots piss me off. It's not my fault I was motivated and knew what I wanted to do before I graduated highschool.

Now that I am a few years older, I see where life experience comes in handy, mainly in dealing with people.

Cheers.

grouchy · Post by **grouchy** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:03 pm

gelbisch, "Without getting into boring details, just about everything I've done since BEFORE high school".
Did you stop at high school or did you take any university courses? They are available by distance.
Also, I think I read in some of your responses on this forum that your references are your relatives who work for AC. Do you have others you might use before family?
None of this is meant as a hack.

abc xyz · Post by **abc xyz** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:25 pm

quickflight wrote:abc xyz wrote

'
I'm far from one of the young guys. I was late chasing my childhood dream. There is reason for the eduaction hype. Those of us that have taken post secondary education have gained skills that those have not will find hard to grasp. Even as an 'old guy' I would challenge most younger guys to beat my ability to 'grasp new information'. I think this move to the younger is bull. I have more tooffer than most younger guys because of my life experience not because of lack of it.

Hi quickflight,

I have no doubt you or for that matter anybody on this forum would do an admirable job flying for Air Canada.

I dont make the rules but I have heard rumblings that some of the so called high time guys who were captains before AC come in with the captain mentality. AC is going to hire someone they feel will be the best investment possible. someone who will fly the AC way not the C3 way not the WJ way or the Jazz way. The AC way.

That being said Im sure the new hire pool will be across the demographic range. They might just have more a rounded look this time around than just hrs in a book.

Best of luck with your quest, the world of aviation isnt fair - sometimes quality people never get their chance its up to you to use all your resources to make the dream a reality.

regards

quickflight · Post by **quickflight** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:07 pm

Thanks for the thought abc, I want all to know that I am not against young guys in the cockpit, I personally wish that all that want to fly find the career they want early, life is short. I think the thought that i had in a recent interview is best, if sitting next to a peron that is 10 or 15 years youger and they are captain who am I to take that away from them, they earned, what I might bring to the cockpit in that case is an aid to good decision making. I have no probelm with younger pilots, hell everybody at the same stage as me is younger or a lifer. I just want an equal shot at a real career. Despite the fact that I have 10- 15 years on most guys.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:38 pm

quickflight

AC has in the past hired pilots in their late 40's so you never know...

feelings on air canada hiring

AC and business nonsense