High Time vs. Low Time?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Train a pilot properly for your operation then he'll be safe.

Yes with proper training it will help insure they will be safe, and if the candidate is not suitable get rid of him / her right from the start.

That is basically the Military training system. I seem to recall reading that for every 100 people that walk into the recruiting center and say " I want to be a pilot", only 1 will get his or her wings.

There is no such weeding out process in civil flight training.

[Cat Driver]

Train a pilot right for your operation.



The above has nothing to do with the military or flight training schools.

It is for the selection process for a given company.

[eddyb123]

I'd wager, you can fly around your practice area, do circuits in whatever you fly, as safely as I can. You can also accomplish a 200 mile cross country in good VFR weather as safely as I can. It's all relative. You are (with certain common sense limitations) as safe as any pilot out there, regardless of experience. You just can't get away with as much shit.
Illia

I confess that I don't get tested enough, I am comfortable in what I do, but I do to little. Flying for fun is expensive LOL I'm a fair weather flyer and make it so I don't see shit, if the planets are aligned right.

[Meatservo]

I get a kick out of the whole concept of "safe".

Whatever it is you just did, if you pulled it off without hurting yourself or anyone else, it turns out you were "safe" all along. Whether that level of safety is reproducible, well that's different.

But if you did it one time, and nothing bad happened, then I guess you can say it was safe.

[timel]

Talking of safety, few flight schools are more and more sloopy on flying standards. Some are too big to care about details.
Some TC delegates can do up to 5-6 flights examinations in a day. It says it all.

Instructors do teach to prepare students for a flight test, not to bring the pilot to a level of excellence, and that is because the flight school did promise the student they would be done in a certain amount of hours.

How many PPL or even newly licensed CPL have you seen confortable with 20-30 knot crosswind?
Some should never be released on solos or be given a pilot licence, even on a CAVOK day.

It starts with flights schools. Raise the bar from the bottom.

[PilotDAR]

It starts with flights schools. Raise the bar from the bottom.

Yes but.... The "bottom" is the service requested by the client, more than that offered. If students walked in the door saying: "I'd like to be trained to a very high standard, including the elements required for a PPL, and I'm budgeting 75 hours for that.", we would have new PPL's with more skill. I was weirdly fortunate in having to wait to be old enough for certain elements of my pilot licensing, I took instruction anyway, and my instructor did train me for some things beyond the scope of the PPL.

"Safe" for a new pilot is kind of like "how wide is what you're walking on?". You might be able to walk a tightrope, but the slightest gust and you're done", or you're walking the centerline of a wide path, so you have skills to work with to get back to center following an upset, but you stayed on a suitable base the whole time. Increasing flying experience makes the path you walk wider. Then get into a new type, and it might narrow for a while, as you build experience, or there may be potholes. You learn to look ahead and see the potholes, and use your wide path to steer around them.

[Rookie50]

Talking of safety, few flight schools are more and more sloopy on flying standards. Some are too big to care about details.
Some TC delegates can do up to 5-6 flights examinations in a day. It says it all.

Instructors do teach to prepare students for a flight test, not to bring the pilot to a level of excellence, and that is because the flight school did promise the student they would be done in a certain amount of hours.

How many PPL or even newly licensed CPL have you seen confortable with 20-30 knot crosswind?
Some should never be released on solos or be given a pilot licence, even on a CAVOK day.

It starts with flights schools. Raise the bar from the bottom.

How is it possible to train a PPL on a 172 to handle a 30 knot (direct) crosswind? I've never done one, flying light singles, and would not be thrilled to try subjecting my own AC to that side load, even If I thought I could get it down, which I probably could if I had to. Uncomfortably.

[Liquid Charlie]

First I would like to say that flying an airplane is pretty easy stuff -- as with most of my generation most soloed with less than 10 hours and the average was likely closer to 7 and all was done on conventional geared aircraft --

It becomes somewhat more difficult once we started earning a living at it but not the hands and feet stuff -- the ability to make the proper judgement calls was the difference between life and death -- I scared myself more in my first year of flying than I have ever since -- bone head choices usually the culprit -- from my experience I have found I need around a 1000 hrs in an airplane type to wear it like a glove -- but that is my learning curve and I'm always ready for that surprise that has not been encountered even after years of flying that type --

Minimum line indoc is 50 hours or 25 plus 25 landings as set out in most coms so you could literally have a navaho captain with an atp transition to a heavy jet captain in as little as 50 hours -- can it be done -- it has in the past but fortunately very little chance now due to insurance and com and seniority lists --

So I say that experience is certainly counts to a certain level but the brain box is far more important -- example -- 2 pilots -- first one what we call "natural pilot" who just drives it - wx does not bother him xwinds are a non issue just a get er done attitude and the second guy who knows his limitations and shuts it down when he is out of his comfort zone -- which one would you want your family riding with -- So yes CRM and good decision making has it -- to quote a famous canadian aviator/owner -- you can teach a monkey to fly and pilots are a dime a dozen -- ironically and tragically his son killed himself pushing wx --

[photofly]

How is it possible to train a PPL on a 172 to handle a 30 knot (direct) crosswind? I've never done one, flying light singles, and would not be thrilled to try subjecting my own AC to that side load, even If I thought I could get it down, which I probably could if I had to. Uncomfortably.

Don't worry about it. He's just engaging in a peculiar AvCanadism which is bitching about other people's lack of crosswind ability in order to gain credibility for himself. Actually two AvCanadisms in one, since he's taking a swipe at flight instruction at the same time. Personally I preferred it when people stick to boasting about their own abilities instead, it's much more direct.

Variable tailwinds of the day to you all.

[timel]

Don't worry about it. He's just engaging in a peculiar AvCanadism which is bitching about other people's lack of crosswind ability in order to gain credibility for himself.

Not at all and sorry you are taking it this way.

I have seen at multiple times, pilots leaving the zone expecting moderate winds, and when they would come back, they would scare themselves because the wind was much higher than planned.
TAFs are not always reliable.

Rockie50, I will admit that 30 kts is exagerated but gusty 25 can be demonstrated during a licence.

Actually two AvCanadisms in one, since he's taking a swipe at flight instruction at the same time. Personally I preferred it when people stick to boasting about their own abilities instead, it's much more direct.

Variable tailwinds of the day to you all.

I am glad photofly that your flight school paradigm is perfect.

I have seen students coming back from doing patterns in gusty crosswind conditions, with instructors and a big smile on the face.

[trampbike]

Don't worry about it. He's just engaging in a peculiar AvCanadism which is bitching about other people's lack of crosswind ability in order to gain credibility for himself. Actually two AvCanadisms in one, since he's taking a swipe at flight instruction at the same time. Personally I preferred it when people stick to boasting about their own abilities instead, it's much more direct.

Variable tailwinds of the day to you all.

I can attest timel can take those winds, and from where we flew together, you kind of had to be proficient at crosswinds if you wanted to fly regularly.

[Rookie50]

Don't worry about it. He's just engaging in a peculiar AvCanadism which is bitching about other people's lack of crosswind ability in order to gain credibility for himself. Actually two AvCanadisms in one, since he's taking a swipe at flight instruction at the same time. Personally I preferred it when people stick to boasting about their own abilities instead, it's much more direct.

Variable tailwinds of the day to you all.

I can attest timel can take those winds, and from where we flew together, you kind of had to be proficient at crosswinds if you wanted to fly regularly.

Not questioning. But it's all about what the airplane can handle. I'm not sure now if we are talking about a 30 knot gusty crosswind, which a 172 should be able to handle in competent hands, or a 30 knot crosswind component, which it's hard to see it remaining on the runway. Just too light. I can do 18-20 knot components in my single. At 20 knots it is awfully light on the runway.

[Meatservo]

I don't know. A 30 knot crosswind ought to be pretty easy in a 172. How wide is the runway? Just land across it. You'll touch down at like 20 knots. Should have 'er stopped in 50 feet. Especially if you land with the brakes already on.

Liquid Charlie, it took me way longer than 7 hours to solo. I am not a "natural" at anything, and I was terrified the whole time. I'm still terrified. The other day I was looking over the edge of the cockpit and suddenly realized, not for the first time, how long I would fall if I got sucked out somehow. I dropped my seat all the way to the floor and stared at my feet until I stopped sweating. Flying is not natural. I don't even find it all that easy. I even still get vertigo sometimes. Why do most "large" aeroplanes not have a turn&bank indicator? That little "ball" thingy under the standby attitude indicator isn't enough! I wouldn't say I ever "learned how to fly" so much as I "learned to function in spite of continuous abject terror". The only time I relax is when I'm in the back sitting on the bowl. There's no windows there. That's why using the word "safety" makes me laugh. You're not safe! You're scorching through the aether in a machine! What the hell is "safe" about that?

I think I might be a "bad flyer".

[trampbike]

Rookie50, I totally agree with you. My answer was directed to photofly's response.

Fun fact: the Harvard II has a hard crosswind limit, not just a "demonstrated" one.
25kts.
Beyond that, with the big dihedral, the gears very close to the centerline, and the crappy brakes, skills will not save you!

[Rookie50]

Meat, I might have a lot less distance to fall than you guys in the flight levels, but I suspect it may not matter too much....flying is unnatural.

Tonight I did some long delayed night recurrency....don't fly as much at night anymore but might be handy this winter --- and that first night takeoff after awhile away from night feels anything but natural! It is cool at night, though. Forgot that part, actually.

[Rookie50]

Rookie50, I totally agree with you. My answer was directed to photofly's response.

Fun fact: the Harvard II has a hard crosswind limit, not just a "demonstrated" one.
25kts.
Beyond that, with the big dihedral, the gears very close to the centerline, and the crappy brakes, skills will not save you!

Even on takeoff...I recall one where there was definitely an imminent sensation of wrong direction movement about to happen, before I wanted movement to occur. Thankfully a 182 doesnt need a lot of forward airspeed either, to be ready for flight.

[Liquid Charlie]

Liquid Charlie, it took me way longer than 7 hours to solo. I am not a "natural" at anything, and I was terrified the whole time. I'm still terrified

-- Meats -- I have been flying for a very long time -- maybe not as long as Cat and a few others and I'm not as sexually perverted as Cat -- but I still have my half century badge -- still doing it for a living but have gone from Boeing to a modified Douglas -- lol -- too stupid to quit or too poor -- school is still out on that one. I have come across several pilots that are as how you are describing yourself -- and I must say I respect them more than most -- hard work is rewarding and my experience has always proved that people such as yourself were always better prepared and more systems knowledgeable and one the line they usually made the right choices -- I'm in awe -- no way I could even function in an aircraft if I had to deal with that -- although I did find driving a semi in the bush during the winter far more intimidating than driving any aircraft -- damn that is truly terrifying -- peace brother -----

[timel]

But it's all about what the airplane can handle. I'm not sure now if we are talking about a 30 knot gusty crosswind, which a 172 should be able to handle in competent hands, or a 30 knot crosswind component, which it's hard to see it remaining on the runway. Just too light.

You are very right a 30kts component will make a 172 drift, I should have added gusty conditions originally.


I will stop arguing about schools and trainings because this topics belong to a certain type of elite.
I have been there, did my best, in retrospect many things I would do differently, but I enjoyed it a lot and I am out of the loop now.

[trampbike]

Many schools in the region didn't allow their students to fly to the aerodrome where you taught timel! I think that says enough about their training standards... Or was that because of you?

[Pop n Fresh]

Today I wish I had a hangar or at least an office. I would print meatservo's post and hang it on the wall.

[Illya Kuryakin]

But it's all about what the airplane can handle. I'm not sure now if we are talking about a 30 knot gusty crosswind, which a 172 should be able to handle in competent hands, or a 30 knot crosswind component, which it's hard to see it remaining on the runway. Just too light.

You are very right a 30kts component will make a 172 drift, I should have added gusty conditions originally.


I will stop arguing about schools and trainings because this topics belong to a certain type of elite.
I have been there, did my best, in retrospect many things I would do differently, but I enjoyed it a lot and I am out of the loop now.

I kind of like a good gusty cross wind. But 30 knots, in a 172? I'd be diverting. BTW, your insurance company would say TFB!
Illya

[timel]

I kind of like a good gusty cross wind. But 30 knots, in a 172? I'd be diverting. BTW, your insurance company would say TFB!
Illya

Insurance wise it is fine as long as your aircraft is airworthy, the AFM says 15 kts demonstrated on T-O but like TB said nothing prohibits it like the Harvard II (very interesting by the way).

Many schools in the region didn't allow their students to fly to the aerodrome where you taught timel! I think that says enough about their training standards... Or was that because of you?

Haha hope not, we had fun that is sure, I can remember some schools that were saying the runway was too short and dangerous even though some guys did land Pitts and PA-31s at this place.

[Cat Driver]

The bottom line as far as flying time goes is when I was young and low time my pay was nowhere near what I was able to get at the end of my career......during my career I managed to fly for 3.4 years.