Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[BverLuver]

Remember, it's not that they wanted to go to 2 crew, that costs money! It was because of a second fatal accident in the company directly caused by company culture. SPIFR was best for them because it's cheaper and pilots/airplanes are replaceable. I will continue to have absolutely no respect for this company, will never go near their operation and will never in good consciousness send any pilot or passenger to step aboard any of their airplanes

[esp803]

Keystone has evolved over almost 30 years as a per CARS, the post CARS operation.

1996 The new CARs permitted single pilot descents to CAP limits. Prior to 1996 CAP limit approaches required two qualified pilots. The was before CRM became effective. The results however produced a mentorship culture of sorts. Two pilot weather briefings, Two pilot dispatch, Two pilot redundancy.

1996 CARS gave 703 operators a green light for Single Pilot IFR. This was great. Until the pool of IFR experience dried up. Our operator experienced this the hard way.

Now, The two pilot IFR is an insurance saving measure. Insurance companies tolerate Single Pilot IFR, but the cost of this coverage is higher.

Keystone is not the same air service it was in 1996, 2001, or 2012. Mr Riopka, and Mr Iafolla have both brought the Keystone corporate culture into safe Two Pilot workplace.

Single Pilot IFR to CAP minimums has been a bad move since 1996. The industry record has proved it. What ever the reason for our operator to choose two pilot operations. KUDOS !

Taking a winter hiatus from my work up north has given me the opportunity to have beers with a couple current/just left pilots from the aforementioned company. Needless to say I have never been so close to punching someone straight in the face. My favorite quote of the night:

"We have to fly over gross or we will be fired"

Further to this, several other companies in the area have started a new verb. "Keystoned" to be ran into mid flight, due to their total lack of radio calls on any frequency any VFR pilot uses below the flight levels. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I would rather have my genitals cut off with a rust spoon then EVER get into one of their airplanes, with one of their pilots at the helm. I would go so far as to say, if ever I am in a hiring position, I WILL blacklist all resumes with that company on them.

Discussing this company makes me shake with rage... it's scotch time to calm the nerves.

E

[BverLuver]

I would go so far as to say, if ever I am in a hiring position, I WILL blacklist all resumes with that company on them.

I have already done this. It is an instant round bin filing.

[esp803]

It is an instant round bin filing.

Between that and my scotch, the shaking as subsided slightly

E

[Diadem]

BverLuver. The point I had was not directed to Cliff, or in the support of Cliff.

"Yes" The deaths of January 10, 2012 may well have been preventable, But the authorized 703 prescription for Single Pilot IFR was my focus.

Operation of Single Pilot IFR without CP or OPS MGR supervision, or a second pilot has always been an accident waiting to happen. The perfect storm came with both 1200 GFA charts on January 10, 2012 and the probee self dispatched the flight

BvrLuver. Remember October 6, 2005 ? A perfect storm hit the Winnipeg aviation community then too. Then too, the Single Pilot IFR flight had no management supervision either.

The company returning to two pilot IFR is a return to common sense that was abandoned in 1996 with CARS allowing Single Pilot IFR to CAP minimums

You make it sound like the accident was the fault of the regs, and that Keystone was a hapless bystander watching helplessly as one of their airplanes was flown into the ground at the behest of TC. If they had believed SPIFR was unsafe before the crash they would have stopped operating with only one crew member, but they didn't; they only changed their ways under pressure from regulators, and possibly with a change to the OC. The regs are intended to provide the bare minimum standard for safe operation, and companies are expected to go above and beyond that minimum to ensure their airplanes stay in the air. The problem isn't that pilots are allowed to fly without another crew member, it's that those pilots are told to fly overweight, bust minima, and never, ever miss at their destination. If the airplane had two pilots on board who were both under the same pressure to get the job done, even if it meant descending below the minimum safe altitude without an approach, I bet the outcome would have been the same.

[2R]

SPIFR to CAP limits is not the problem.
SPIFR can be done safely with trained crew, proper equipment, NO PROBLEM.

Fly an aircraft without proper equipment, in weather beyond the aircrafts capabilities, at weights beyond the aircrafts capabilities and the flight will have problems.


After reading the entire thread again ,It reminded me of something I read on my shampoo bottle, rinse and repeat.

[lostaviator]

all this talk about CAR's... What about the one big one the pilot neglected... you know.. busting minimums?

[Indanao]

It's 2013, they need Aircraft with De-Icing capability for that type of work.

[SnotRocket]

Nothing is going to change with this company. Flying 2 crew will not solve anything. Snag airplanes you're fired. Refuse to go you're fired. Refuse bags you're fired. They love to make one guy the example to put fear in the hearts of everyone else. The end result is that you have 2 guys in the cockpit willing to bust minimums, fly overweight, and fly with cracks in the landing gear rather than just one. I'm glad the pilots I know walked away from them after a few months of their BS.

I also find this interesting: "Neither the pilot’s operational flight plan nor the C of G calculations was recovered, and no record of these items was found at CYWG or at the operator’s base at Saint Andrews." Seems a little too convenient...

[helione]

Nothing is going to change with this company. Flying 2 crew will not solve anything. Snag airplanes you're fired. Refuse to go you're fired. Refuse bags you're fired. They love to make one guy the example to put fear in the hearts of everyone else. The end result is that you have 2 guys in the cockpit willing to bust minimums, fly overweight, and fly with cracks in the landing gear rather than just one. I'm glad the pilots I know walked away from them after a few months of their BS.

I also find this interesting: "Neither the pilot’s operational flight plan nor the C of G calculations was recovered, and no record of these items was found at CYWG or at the operator’s base at Saint Andrews." Seems a little too convenient...

I tend to agree with that statement......first hand knowledge as well......the crap that went on there was/is beyond belief.....I would suggest they know exactly what they are doing

[stef]

Young pilots should know that they should stand up for themselves. If a company is going to let someone go, there is a careful process they must follow, or they leave the door wide open to being sued. If some a-hole threatens to fire you for not flying overweight etc, tell him politely its not safe, document your conversation and call the labour board. You'll win.

[shimmydampner]

I also find this interesting: "Neither the pilot’s operational flight plan nor the C of G calculations was recovered, and no record of these items was found at CYWG or at the operator’s base at Saint Andrews." Seems a little too convenient

Oh my, not the OFP! Can airplanes even fly without paperwork?

[AOW]

SPIFR to CAP limits is not the problem.
SPIFR can be done safely with trained crew, proper equipment, NO PROBLEM.

Fly an aircraft without proper equipment, in weather beyond the aircrafts capabilities, at weights beyond the aircrafts capabilities and the flight will have problems.


After reading the entire thread again ,It reminded me of something I read on my shampoo bottle, rinse and repeat.

+1

Don't forget that KQ3 was a VFR airport at the time, and based on the Wx that day, a homebrew approach was the only possible way to get in. The sooner people stop making up their own procedures because there is no other way to deliver that pop & chips, the sooner accidents like this will be a thing of the past!

[SnotRocket]

I also find this interesting: "Neither the pilot’s operational flight plan nor the C of G calculations was recovered, and no record of these items was found at CYWG or at the operator’s base at Saint Andrews." Seems a little too convenient

Oh my, not the OFP! Can airplanes even fly without paperwork?

If it implicates someone its quite convenient for the paperwork to go missing.

[Nephilim]

In reviewing the accident investigation reports there seems to be a smoking gun that everyone in the industry has seemed to neglect. On page 20 of the report under section 1.18.4 entitled Safety Management Systems states that while SMS was required since 2005 for small air carrier’s implementation has been delayed. “In 2005 Keystone Air Services voluntarily began transition to a SMS, but it discontinued its transition for various reasons in 2009.”

What the report does not state but perhaps should; is that this is typical of 95% of all small air carriers across Canada. When SMS was introduced the old Transport Canada methods that worked of company audits and enforcement went by the wayside in exchange for the new and improved SMS. However, when it was discovered that SMS could not be made to work in most cases with small air carriers for various reasons and has since been delayed indefinitely, this has left a gaping hole in this industry’s safety. Perfect example is in this Keystone case where there was a known management attitude towards pushing to get the trip down for years, with no Transport Canada enforcement to stop this dangerous trend, eventually leading to the loss of a young pilot’s life and his passengers that should have been totally preventable.

Why is not the small air carrier profession up in arms over this blatant screw up by Transport Canada and SMS leaving a gaping hole in aviation safety?

What do us older and perhaps wiser aviators tell the young and aspiring small air carrier pilots to do in regards aviation safety in the industry? They don’t have the old Transport Canada system of audits and enforcement to protect them, and they don’t have the new SMS there for protection either. They are in a no-man’s-land. In my opinion this is the most dangerous time for a young pilot to begin their careers in this twilight zone created by Transport Canada negligence.

Heads up young aviators!

[Jack In The Box]

Why is not the small air carrier profession up in arms over this blatant screw up by Transport Canada and SMS leaving a gaping hole in aviation safety?

What do us older and perhaps wiser aviators tell the young and aspiring small air carrier pilots to do in regards aviation safety in the industry? They don’t have the old Transport Canada system of audits and enforcement to protect them, and they don’t have the new SMS there for protection either. They are in a no-man’s-land. In my opinion this is the most dangerous time for a young pilot to begin their careers in this twilight zone created by Transport Canada negligence.

Heads up young aviators!

There is lots many people can and want to say, including me. But few who have the gall to actually say it for fear of repercussions or other (count myself in this group, unfortunately). All that can be done safely without developing a potentially harmful rep for ourselves is roll our eyes, talk about how angry it makes us, be glad that we do not work there (anymore, or in the past), and reassure ourselves that we will NEVER work there in the future.

OTOH, we can scream about how bad this place till we are blue in the face. The fact is, people are still going to work for "sketchy operators" because there opportunities are hard earned, due to supply and demand. And we can yell, scream, kick and punch the air all we want about how inappropriate it is that anyone would be willing to work there, but it's easy to say once you have several thousand hours and don't need a stepping stone to reach your goal. Most people, when they have fewer options, will be willing to make sacrifices to achieve their goals, including putting up with a royal amount of BS in hopes of moving somewhere better one day. It's just human nature, unfortunately.

The real failure is by TC to close this goat dance down.

[jpilot77]

The real failure is by TC to close this goat dance down.

Yep this is Transports third bite at the apple, other companies have been shut down for less.
Is this a case of a crappy operator keeping their OC by having great paperwork?

[vstrom]

The real failure is by TC to close this goat dance down.

Yep this is Transports third bite at the apple, other companies have been shut down for less.
Is this a case of a crappy operator keeping their OC by having great paperwork?

Didn't Riopka work at TC awhile back?

[grimey]

Yea, he was in enforcement.

[vstrom]

Yea, he was in enforcement.

Kinda makes one wonder, doesn't it?

[Old fella]

The real failure is by TC to close this goat dance down.

Yep this is Transports third bite at the apple, other companies have been shut down for less.
Is this a case of a crappy operator keeping their OC by having great paperwork?

Didn't Riopka work at TC awhile back?

Yes, he did and I knew him during his tenure there. He was RM - Enforcement in Atlantic and he came in from TC-WG I think, he also did C550 line training when TC aircraft services got into the C550 program back in mid 90's.

[flyinhigh]

Keystone is not the same air service it was in 1996, 2001, or 2012. Mr Iafolla have both brought the Keystone corporate culture into safe Two Pilot workplace.

Of all that was written this is the one that made me laugh HARD. I have on more than one occasion watch him take 9 passengers plus my extra 800 lbs of gear plus what ever else he had on board, on a flight that required a minimum of 2300 lbs of fuel.

Our calculations put him at about 500 lbs min over weight, but good for him that he implemented a forced 2 crew culture.

[vstrom]

Legal action.

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/ontario-plan ... -1.1638814

[frozen solid]

Legal action.

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/ontario-plan ... -1.1638814

Hey, that's great! Sure, the pilot's "estate" lost a son, but the passenger lost his cell-phone case and coat! Sue 'em!

[ReserveTank]

And folks, this is why I stay on the ground when it's iffy...even if company is pressuring and the other pilots are scoffing. I'm thinking about what is going to happen to my family after they scrape me off the ground. All the investigators have to prove is that you did one thing outside of the margins. That company is going to throw that dead kid under the bus, you watch. Hope this is a lesson to you eager hotshots.