DEC Jazz

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hi Everyone,
I have a question about the DEC positions at Jazz. Do you think it is a good move starting as a captain when you don’t know the company, the aircraft, the routes… do you think being FO for a couple of months really makes a difference to learn the stuff or the DEC position is fine ?
Thank you very much !

I would never want to be DEC and on a 1 yr probationary period. I'd say 1 yr minimum on property and on type before CA.

That means spending more than one year at jazz. Which right now… is madness

[QKZXKV]

Hi Everyone,
I have a question about the DEC positions at Jazz. Do you think it is a good move starting as a captain when you don’t know the company, the aircraft, the routes… do you think being FO for a couple of months really makes a difference to learn the stuff or the DEC position is fine ?
Thank you very much !

I would never want to be DEC and on a 1 yr probationary period. I'd say 1 yr minimum on property and on type before CA.

That means spending more than one year at jazz. Which right now… is madness

I couldn't imagine the responsibility of CA while having the threat of a probationary period over my head, and yes they are terminating people in the yr period regardless of shortage.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I would never want to be DEC and on a 1 yr probationary period. I'd say 1 yr minimum on property and on type before CA.

That means spending more than one year at jazz. Which right now… is madness

I couldn't imagine the responsibility of CA while having the threat of a probationary period over my head, and yes they are terminating people in the yr period regardless of shortage.

Of course, I would expect them to have high standards for captains. I was just saying if you’re gonna try and tackle that captain responsibility with a 1 year probation period, there might be better 705 operations to roll the dice with.

[QKZXKV]

That means spending more than one year at jazz. Which right now… is madness

I couldn't imagine the responsibility of CA while having the threat of a probationary period over my head, and yes they are terminating people in the yr period regardless of shortage.

Of course, I would expect them to have high standards for captains. I was just saying if you’re gonna try and tackle that captain responsibility with a 1 year probation period, there might be better 705 operations to roll the dice with.

Yeah I do find it curious, maybe some candidates are arrogant enough to think it's an easier ride at Jazz?

[QKZXKV]

That means spending more than one year at jazz. Which right now… is madness

I couldn't imagine the responsibility of CA while having the threat of a probationary period over my head, and yes they are terminating people in the yr period regardless of shortage.

Of course, I would expect them to have high standards for captains. I was just saying if you’re gonna try and tackle that captain responsibility with a 1 year probation period, there might be better 705 operations to roll the dice with.

Yeah I do find it curious, maybe some candidates are arrogant enough to think it's an easier ride at Jazz?

[flyingcanuck]

I couldn't imagine the responsibility of CA while having the threat of a probationary period over my head, and yes they are terminating people in the yr period regardless of shortage.

Of course, I would expect them to have high standards for captains. I was just saying if you’re gonna try and tackle that captain responsibility with a 1 year probation period, there might be better 705 operations to roll the dice with.

Yeah I do find it curious, maybe some candidates are arrogant enough to think it's an easier ride at Jazz?

lots do, and some wash out and some change their mind at the last second and go be FOs instead

[Man_in_the_sky]

Well, the training departement is a joke actually on some type... Brand new captain that didn't fly the plane for less than a few months teaching the new hires.. Disaster waiting to happen!

[fixnfly]

Well, the training departement is a joke actually on some type... Brand new captain that didn't fly the plane for less than a few months teaching the new hires.. Disaster waiting to happen!

That's better than I thought. Pretty sure the training department is getting new FO's with 8-10 months at Jazz and under 200 hours on type teaching FFS at CAE because they can't find anyone else to do it.

[flyingcanuck]

Well, the training departement is a joke actually on some type... Brand new captain that didn't fly the plane for less than a few months teaching the new hires.. Disaster waiting to happen!

That's better than I thought. Pretty sure the training department is getting new FO's with 8-10 months at Jazz and under 200 hours on type teaching FFS at CAE because they can't find anyone else to do it.

that and as an FO you make just shy of CA pay in the train. dept

[SkyBagPiper]

What’s the current status for DEC’s for 2024?

I remember seeing a hiring portal on their website for DEC’s last year. Haven’t seen it since Spring/Summer 2023.

Last rumours I hear was they had a lot of FO’s difficult to upgrade due to PIC hours needed and there was a lack of Left seat upgradable candidates. I’m curious if that was resolved or it’s still in effect in 2024. I know the internal flow list to AC is no more, so they probably apply as external. But I keep hearing many new AC groundschool guys are indeed from Jazz. How is that helping the shortage at jazz vs. the DEC issue?

[Happyflyer78]

What’s the current status for DEC’s for 2024?

I remember seeing a hiring portal on their website for DEC’s last year. Haven’t seen it since Spring/Summer 2023.

Last rumours I hear was they had a lot of FO’s difficult to upgrade due to PIC hours needed and there was a lack of Left seat upgradable candidates. I’m curious if that was resolved or it’s still in effect in 2024. I know the internal flow list to AC is no more, so they probably apply as external. But I keep hearing many new AC groundschool guys are indeed from Jazz. How is that helping the shortage at jazz vs. the DEC issue?

Those rumours are not true. The facts are Jazz has no desire to hire quickly upgradable applicants, they hire low time graduates who takes a few years to upgrade, not experienced 703 Captains who are upgradable within a year.

[cdnavater]

What’s the current status for DEC’s for 2024?

I remember seeing a hiring portal on their website for DEC’s last year. Haven’t seen it since Spring/Summer 2023.

Last rumours I hear was they had a lot of FO’s difficult to upgrade due to PIC hours needed and there was a lack of Left seat upgradable candidates. I’m curious if that was resolved or it’s still in effect in 2024. I know the internal flow list to AC is no more, so they probably apply as external. But I keep hearing many new AC groundschool guys are indeed from Jazz. How is that helping the shortage at jazz vs. the DEC issue?

I believe when you are hired if you are qualified, you could turn any FO spot into DEC, as long as there is a current vacancy for Captain on that equipment. I believe all positions have Captain vacancies, however, not many have been successful at the DEC spots.
If you have some good 705 left seat time, you might succeed, some ATPL qualified candidates have come through lately and chose to go right seat for a year and then bid over to the left seat, but you could bid it and be awarded at any time if that is your standing bid.
As for the flow list, I don’t know what you mean by “no more”, do you mean cancelled?
Any qualified Jazz pilot hired prior to Aug or Sept 2023 is entitled to 60% of the new hire positions at AC, after that date it’s 30%. So, hypothetically you as a new hire would be in the 30% but if no qualified Jazz pilots are on the list, you could theoretically skip them. I believe the qualifications stand at 2000 hours and an ATPL.

[Inverted2]

If someone showed up with the experience I’m sure a DEC position is open at Jazz but with a starting hourly rate of around $110/hr they won’t be getting too many applicants. Hiring these days is mostly ~1000 hr pilots who are not even close in hours or experience to upgrade.

[rudder]

If someone showed up with the experience I’m sure a DEC position is open at Jazz but with a starting hourly rate of around $110/hr they won’t be getting too many applicants. Hiring these days is mostly ~1000 hr pilots who are not even close in hours or experience to upgrade.

Porter is an example of a company that has commercial needs (rapid expansion) and understands that finding qualified pilots will come at a cost. It is both recognized and accepted.

There other carriers that either don’t seem to get it, or are willing to let the chips fall where they may.

[hithere]

Why would anyone, with any amount of experience( enough to be DEC at least) sign up for $110/hr to fly 18 days a month(or be on reserve for 18 days a month) and live in the most expensive cities in Canada? Actually the reserve scenario is more realistic because you will constantly have senior FOs parachute in above you when they do finally decide to upgrade, plus the Captain rosters are very stagnant at Jazz . The only solution is to pay more for DEC(as Porter is doing) or provide a POS space commute/hotel allowance to entice pilots with experience to leave their 703/704 operator but still be able to live at home in an affordable city and/or have more guaranteed days off per month

[Nick678]

What’s the current status for DEC’s for 2024?

I remember seeing a hiring portal on their website for DEC’s last year. Haven’t seen it since Spring/Summer 2023.

Last rumours I hear was they had a lot of FO’s difficult to upgrade due to PIC hours needed and there was a lack of Left seat upgradable candidates. I’m curious if that was resolved or it’s still in effect in 2024. I know the internal flow list to AC is no more, so they probably apply as external. But I keep hearing many new AC groundschool guys are indeed from Jazz. How is that helping the shortage at jazz vs. the DEC issue?

I believe when you are hired if you are qualified, you could turn any FO spot into DEC, as long as there is a current vacancy for Captain on that equipment. I believe all positions have Captain vacancies, however, not many have been successful at the DEC spots.
If you have some good 705 left seat time, you might succeed, some ATPL qualified candidates have come through lately and chose to go right seat for a year and then bid over to the left seat, but you could bid it and be awarded at any time if that is your standing bid.
As for the flow list, I don’t know what you mean by “no more”, do you mean cancelled?
Any qualified Jazz pilot hired prior to Aug or Sept 2023 is entitled to 60% of the new hire positions at AC, after that date it’s 30%. So, hypothetically you as a new hire would be in the 30% but if no qualified Jazz pilots are on the list, you could theoretically skip them. I believe the qualifications stand at 2000 hours and an ATPL.

Why would you type that BS on flow?

[702pipeliner]

Ignoring what Happyflyer78 said because he is either a genius level troll or even jazz was able to determine his CRM skills were not ample for the operation.

I do believe if there is candidates in the groundschool that meet the atpl and a pulse requirements that some spots can be converted to a DEC postion. But they heavily encourage you not to in the groundschool and emphasize what experience they recommend you have before pursuing a DEC.

Jazz has a large problem that's ever increasing with qualified candidates to upgrade and those who can successfully upgrade. Lots of the fos who have been hired new contract prior to covid either are lifers at jazz or lifers because no atpl requirements ro proceed onto ac or other carriers. Lots of fos with good experience who could upgrade have already left.

DEC was fairly flawed because the challenge was the upgrade process was never developed with DEC in mind. Personally feom my experience background along with several others opted to be a first officer for several months and then upgrade. Unfortunately for me that time was shorter then anticipated with the reduction of flying outwest.

Flow is still a thing guys up to aug of 2022 are interviewing at ac. When they will get a gs is anyone's guess.

[cdnavater]

What’s the current status for DEC’s for 2024?

I remember seeing a hiring portal on their website for DEC’s last year. Haven’t seen it since Spring/Summer 2023.

Last rumours I hear was they had a lot of FO’s difficult to upgrade due to PIC hours needed and there was a lack of Left seat upgradable candidates. I’m curious if that was resolved or it’s still in effect in 2024. I know the internal flow list to AC is no more, so they probably apply as external. But I keep hearing many new AC groundschool guys are indeed from Jazz. How is that helping the shortage at jazz vs. the DEC issue?

I believe when you are hired if you are qualified, you could turn any FO spot into DEC, as long as there is a current vacancy for Captain on that equipment. I believe all positions have Captain vacancies, however, not many have been successful at the DEC spots.
If you have some good 705 left seat time, you might succeed, some ATPL qualified candidates have come through lately and chose to go right seat for a year and then bid over to the left seat, but you could bid it and be awarded at any time if that is your standing bid.
As for the flow list, I don’t know what you mean by “no more”, do you mean cancelled?
Any qualified Jazz pilot hired prior to Aug or Sept 2023 is entitled to 60% of the new hire positions at AC, after that date it’s 30%. So, hypothetically you as a new hire would be in the 30% but if no qualified Jazz pilots are on the list, you could theoretically skip them. I believe the qualifications stand at 2000 hours and an ATPL.

Why would you type that BS on flow?

Which part do you have a problem with, that is the agreement and how it is supposed to work.
Do you think the grievance process won’t accomplish anything? Entitled means exactly that, they are supposed to get the benefit of 60%, now 30% flow. At some point an arbitrator will remedy this, to say it is no more or cancelled is not true, it’s still in the agreement.
Question for you, how many “qualified” pilots do you think are at Jazz right now who aren’t “flowing” but have applied.

[Nick678]

I believe when you are hired if you are qualified, you could turn any FO spot into DEC, as long as there is a current vacancy for Captain on that equipment. I believe all positions have Captain vacancies, however, not many have been successful at the DEC spots.
If you have some good 705 left seat time, you might succeed, some ATPL qualified candidates have come through lately and chose to go right seat for a year and then bid over to the left seat, but you could bid it and be awarded at any time if that is your standing bid.
As for the flow list, I don’t know what you mean by “no more”, do you mean cancelled?
Any qualified Jazz pilot hired prior to Aug or Sept 2023 is entitled to 60% of the new hire positions at AC, after that date it’s 30%. So, hypothetically you as a new hire would be in the 30% but if no qualified Jazz pilots are on the list, you could theoretically skip them. I believe the qualifications stand at 2000 hours and an ATPL.

Why would you type that BS on flow?

Which part do you have a problem with, that is the agreement and how it is supposed to work.
Do you think the grievance process won’t accomplish anything? Entitled means exactly that, they are supposed to get the benefit of 60%, now 30% flow. At some point an arbitrator will remedy this, to say it is no more or cancelled is not true, it’s still in the agreement.
Question for you, how many “qualified” pilots do you think are at Jazz right now who aren’t “flowing” but have applied.

“How it’s supposed to work” - because it didn’t work.

Arbitrators don’t have time machines and there’s no guaranteed outcome from arbitration. Coming here and mentioning it like that is really bizarre. Are you management?

I know a few pilots waiting to flow over but can’t speak for total numbers. Hopefully pilots with ATPLs stay away from jazz.

[Turboprops]

Flow is still a thing guys up to aug of 2022 are interviewing at ac. When they will get a gs is anyone's guess.

If it’s anything less than the contractual required percentage, yeah I’d say the flow is NOT a thing anymore.
These guys interviewing now should’ve been at AC a year ago

[Turboprops]

Which part do you have a problem with, that is the agreement and how it is supposed to work.
Do you think the grievance process won’t accomplish anything? Entitled means exactly that, they are supposed to get the benefit of 60%, now 30% flow. At some point an arbitrator will remedy this, to say it is no more or cancelled is not true, it’s still in the agreement.
Question for you, how many “qualified” pilots do you think are at Jazz right now who aren’t “flowing” but have applied.

So you think the grievance will get everyone their seniority at AC back? You think it’ll give those at Jazz a bunch of money to compensate loss of Jazz seniority/upgrades due to no movement/flow? I got a bridge in Mexico to sell you if you think the answer is yes

Also what 60% and 30% are you talking about? If they only hired 30% when it was supposed to be 60%, what percentage do you think they’ll hire when it’s “officially” 30%?

To answer your last question, I don’t care how many are still left, each and everyone of them 2000 hour ATPL qualified pilots that have applied to AC should’ve gone last year. The fact aug 2022 hires are still in the interviewing process means there’s no flow

[rudder]

Which part do you have a problem with, that is the agreement and how it is supposed to work.
Do you think the grievance process won’t accomplish anything? Entitled means exactly that, they are supposed to get the benefit of 60%, now 30% flow. At some point an arbitrator will remedy this, to say it is no more or cancelled is not true, it’s still in the agreement.
Question for you, how many “qualified” pilots do you think are at Jazz right now who aren’t “flowing” but have applied.

So you think the grievance will get everyone their seniority at AC back? You think it’ll give those at Jazz a bunch of money to compensate loss of Jazz seniority/upgrades due to no movement/flow? I got a bridge in Mexico to sell you if you think the answer is yes

Also what 60% and 30% are you talking about? If they only hired 30% when it was supposed to be 60%, what percentage do you think they’ll hire when it’s “officially” 30%?

To answer your last question, I don’t care how many are still left, each and everyone of them 2000 hour ATPL qualified pilots that have applied to AC should’ve gone last year. The fact aug 2022 hires are still in the interviewing process means there’s no flow

By the time the cadre of 30% flow candidates are being interviewed, AC will be down to hiring 300(or less) total pilots per year (2025). So that ‘flow’ will equal 90 AC flow positions(or less) per year.

[Hysteria]

Which part do you have a problem with, that is the agreement and how it is supposed to work.
Do you think the grievance process won’t accomplish anything? Entitled means exactly that, they are supposed to get the benefit of 60%, now 30% flow. At some point an arbitrator will remedy this, to say it is no more or cancelled is not true, it’s still in the agreement.
Question for you, how many “qualified” pilots do you think are at Jazz right now who aren’t “flowing” but have applied.

So you think the grievance will get everyone their seniority at AC back? You think it’ll give those at Jazz a bunch of money to compensate loss of Jazz seniority/upgrades due to no movement/flow? I got a bridge in Mexico to sell you if you think the answer is yes

Also what 60% and 30% are you talking about? If they only hired 30% when it was supposed to be 60%, what percentage do you think they’ll hire when it’s “officially” 30%?

To answer your last question, I don’t care how many are still left, each and everyone of them 2000 hour ATPL qualified pilots that have applied to AC should’ve gone last year. The fact aug 2022 hires are still in the interviewing process means there’s no flow

I had heard a rumour that I hope is not true - that those flowing are FOs and that captains are so needed at Jazz that they take longer to flow?

[goingnowherefast]

It's pretty obvious, no?
If you wanna work at AC, go to Porter, Encore, Perimeter, Wasaya, Inuit, Calm Air, Canadian North, etc. If you are already at Jazz, quit and go to one of the above.

FYI, the same applies to Encore flow to WJ.

Flow has proven to be a farce to suck people in to Jazz/Encore at suppressed wages for the (cough) *opportunity* (cough) to work for AC/WJ.

A grievance won't really work to correct the wrong done to those who were decieved. Maybe a consolation prize at best. A grievance is more to make the corporate overlords feel a consequence for breaking a promise.

At best, we can learn to never trust a corporation and look out for our own individual best interests. Big wigs prove constantly that they don't care about pilots.

[cdnavater]

Which part do you have a problem with, that is the agreement and how it is supposed to work.
Do you think the grievance process won’t accomplish anything? Entitled means exactly that, they are supposed to get the benefit of 60%, now 30% flow. At some point an arbitrator will remedy this, to say it is no more or cancelled is not true, it’s still in the agreement.
Question for you, how many “qualified” pilots do you think are at Jazz right now who aren’t “flowing” but have applied.

So you think the grievance will get everyone their seniority at AC back? You think it’ll give those at Jazz a bunch of money to compensate loss of Jazz seniority/upgrades due to no movement/flow? I got a bridge in Mexico to sell you if you think the answer is yes

Also what 60% and 30% are you talking about? If they only hired 30% when it was supposed to be 60%, what percentage do you think they’ll hire when it’s “officially” 30%?

To answer your last question, I don’t care how many are still left, each and everyone of them 2000 hour ATPL qualified pilots that have applied to AC should’ve gone last year. The fact aug 2022 hires are still in the interviewing process means there’s no flow

No, I don’t think either of those things and I honestly don’t know what will be decided, it’s very difficult to determine harm because there are a ton of assumptions.