gear up in buttonville

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:25 am

You really only do a few lessons in the circuit during the multi-training at Seneca. So its not much exposure, just enough to get you comfortable with the different approach speeds and flare technique. I mean, with the gear down, its not like you're flying the circuit much faster (only 5 to 10 kts more)

The lesson plans there are very structured and there is little room for extra time in the circuit if the student doesn't "get it" right away.

HavaJava · Post by **HavaJava** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:44 am

Hedley,

Circuits in the Baron are required because of the significantly higher approach speeds and the the fact that the aircraft is generally heavier on the controls than any other training aircraft. Also, the flare is different in that you set a landing attitude in the flare as opposed to 'holding it off' like you might do in a light trainer. I don't think you should expect someone who has mastered landing a C172 to be able to perfectly land a Baron on the first try.

Anyway, on top of that, very rarely during my Seneca training did we just fly normal circuits. Almost all the circuits I did were abnormal which, by the way, included many engine failures after take-off...and guess what!?...no one died because we had left the gear down for the circuit. The gear was up within 5-10 seconds in those cases and any loss of performance was insignificant.

As Clodhopper said, usually a few circuits are added on to the end of only 2-3 airwork lessons and that is about all the time we spend in the circuit in the Baron.

I know that Clodhopper, myself, and other Seneca grads aren't going to convince everyone that this method of training is safe and reasonable, but maybe if these people were exposed to the environment that Seneca trains in and looked at it with an open mind then they might rethink their position on the issue.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:04 am

If I was running the puppy mill, I would start everyone off in a Decathlon.

Basic acro (rolls, loops, spins) even before solo, and as far as landing skills, start with 3-point, then move onto wheel landings. When the student can land on only one main in a crosswind, and comfortably hold it there, rolling down the runway with the wing down, he has developed stick & rudder skills that will last a lifetime.

Now that his feet are "awake", onto your Bonanza. Stress that it is a procedural aircraft - fly it by the numbers. Anyone who can comfortably land a Decathlon in a crosswind will have no problem landing a Bonanza.

Once the RG Bonanza is mastered, time for the Baron. Another set of numbers.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is, but I understand these days that basic stick & rudder skills (crosswind landings) and unusual attitude training are considered old-fashioned "cowboy" maneuvers, and mastering these skills causes you problems in instrument training.

What horse puckey. The best aerobatic pilots in the world all have airline transport pilot certificates. Why? Because they're easy to get, in comparison.

HavaJava · Post by **HavaJava** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:08 am

I agree with you 100% Hedley. By far the best hands and feet training I've received was on the Champ, Canuck, and Maule. I haven't had any serious aerobatics training yet but that is high on my list of things to do.

It is unfortunate that insurance premiums make operating taildraggers as trainers so prohibitive because that is definately the best way for a student to start out.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:11 am

I know its probably been asked a million times on here before, but as a quick aside: anybody know where I can find a taildragger to rent? Either just for the experience or possibly to add an aerobatic rating?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:12 am

I always found the runway configuration of the WWII BCATP runways interesting .... they were always equilateral triangles, so that there was never more than 30 degrees of crosswind for the students

P.S. Clodhopper: I see you're in Hamilton. Go see Gerry Younger in Kitchener-Waterloo. Last I heard, he still might give dual in an S-2A, at a very reasonable price. He's kind of cranky, but try to get past that - he's probably one of the most skilled pilots in Canada. You can learn an awful lot from him.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:19 am

add an aerobatic rating

I might mention that there is no such thing as an aerobatic rating or endorsement in the CARs.

It is quite legal in Canada for you, with 50 hours in a C150 and a fresh ppl, to buy a single-seat Pitts and go teach yourself aerobatics and tailwheel landings.

I personally might not recommend it, but if you insist upon doing it, I might suggest taping the event with a video camera - the TSB will appreciate it.

If we look at CAR 401.92, a class 2 aerobatic instructor may merely:

(b) certify a licensed pilot's personal log with respect to competency to perform aerobatic manoeuvres.

and that's it. If you wish to carry pax in your 2-seat aerobatic aircraft, CAR 602.28 applies:

No person operating an aircraft with a passenger on board shall conduct an aerobatic manoeuvre unless the pilot-in-command of the aircraft has engaged in

(a) at least 10 hours dual flight instruction in the conducting of aerobatic manoeuvres or 20 hours conducting aerobatic manoeuvres; and

(b) at least one hour of conducting aerobatic manoeuvres in the preceding six months.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:25 am

There are still tons of the old BCATP airports left, although most have been converted to other uses in this area:

Cayuga - now the drag strip
Hagersville - some sort of storage yard
Aylmer - OPP/Police Officer training facility, complete with traffic lights at the 'intersections'
Hamilton used to have the old triangular setup, but they turned the 3rd runway into taxiway charlie ages ago. And added 30L/12R, then closed that too...

As for the rating, that was my mistake. Any pointers on where I could go, Hedley?
[edit] - whoops, missed the end of your post Hedley, thanks for the info (twice).

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:33 am

Yeah, there's a lot of pavement to maintain on the BCATP runways ...

As far as acro goes, around Toronto, I think Pitch Molnar's shop at St Catherines has pretty well closed down (and moved to Phoenix). They used to fly Extras, but they were very expensive.

Used to be some zlins available for acro training around Toronto, but I think that's shut down too.

I'd go to Gerry Younger at Kitchener-Waterloo, if he's still doing it in the Pitts S-2A.

I've heard about a Citabria for acro training, somewhere around Barrie, but a Citabria is a pretty marginal acro aircraft (I know, we have one).

The short season (compared to Florida or California) plus the hassles from Transport, make it pretty unattractive to teach acro in Ontario.

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:57 am

I may not have any time at all in an RG aircraft but I know what I am talking about........

Why the hell would you want to bring your gear up and risk this?

http://www.wftv.com/video/4983089/detail.html

I know I know leaving your gear down will make it harder to fly.....so what are you a pussy? Dont you like challenges?

Jesus....you guys are amateurs....

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:04 am

i cant believe you guys are even discussing this

scm · Post by **scm** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:11 am

niss wrote:I feel quite combfortable stating that I will never do a gear up landing on my fixed gear aircraft LOL, but that is probably just because I am an absolutly amazing aviator that loves alliteration.

just dont land inverted

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:45 am

I remember saying a while back that retractible gear should be banned. Are we going to sacrifice safety for efficiancy people come on!!!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:56 am

The best way to really master precision handling of an airplane is to do repetative touch and goes alternating left and right hand circuits every 60 seconds from touch down to touch down. And it is best flown in a tail wheel airplane.

I extend the time from one minute to three minutes in this thing.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ ... 4393-b.jpg

We do ten circuits then switch to touch downs every fifteen seconds from fifty feet in a straight line.

Cat

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:58 am

just dont land inverted

Why not?

Oh, now I remember. CAR 602.01 - gotcha, thanks. Note the N-registration, so Transport can't crucify this guy.

. wrote:

60 seconds from touch down to touch down

heh heh ... that's a pretty busy hour! I'm not as much of a sadist, 2 minutes (30 landings per hour) is good for me.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:05 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The best way to really master precision handling of an airplane is to do repetative touch and goes alternating left and right hand circuits every 60 seconds from touch down to touch down. And it is best flown in a tail wheel airplane.

I extend the time from one minute to three minutes in this thing.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ ... 4393-b.jpg

We do ten circuits then switch to touch downs every fifteen seconds from fifty feet in a straight line.

Cat

Cat, we'd just have to find somewhere to apply this technique in Southern Ontario and I'd be signed up. Failing that, I find that the "keeping one wheel in contact" is an excellent co-ordination and confidence-building exercise. Never tried asking ATC if they'd allow several touch and goes on the same approach, although some students do it accidentally...

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:18 pm

"keeping one wheel in contact"

Once the student has mastered that, with a long runway, and no crosswind, have him land on the (say) left main, with the left wing down, and hold that for a couple seconds.

Then have him lower the right main, so both are on the runway (wheel landing).

Then have him lift the left main, so that only the right main is contacting the runway, with the right wing down. Hold that a couple seconds, then have him lower the left main again, so both are on the runway.

Then have him switch back again to only the left main.

Rinse, lather, repeat until you run out of runway.

No doubt there are those of you who might wonder at the utility of such an odd exercise. Aside from the obvious aircraft handling skill development, it is quite useful to learn to sideslip to a landing, even with no crosswind.

Sideslip with no crosswind, you say? What on earth for?

Back to the wheel landing. Problem with a wheel landing is that if it's not a greaser, and you touch down on the mains with any rate of descent, the mass of the aircraft at the C of G behind the mains pulls the tail down, the AOA increases, and so does lift, and off you go, into the air with no airspeed, which is generally not a good idea.

But .... if you sideslip, and touch ONE main down first, if you do not have a greaser, instead of pushing the tail down, the other main comes down instead.

Neat, eh? Makes wheel landings MUCH easier.

But then again, what would I know? Transport dislikes me intensely, so therefore I don't know much about aviation

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:20 pm

clodhopper, there should be lots of airfields left in S. Ont. where this can be done.

When I did my training for Aerial Application we did it in St Thomas usually at dawn when we had the airport to ourselves.

With the Cub a good pilot should to do repetative circuits in far less than one minute...closer to thirty seconds would be reasonable.

That was why I converted my Aerobat to a tail wheel configuration, my plan was to offer a skills upgrading course called " High command control " which includes basic aerobatics.

However I have lost intrest in any flight instruction in Canada due to my problems with TC....the coc.suckers started telling foreign students of mine that I was breaking the law and they would not approve any training done by me.

So fu.k the whole thing I don't want to spend my last years in prison for makinng a parapelegic out of one of TC's morons.

And Hedlleys exercise is excellent practice.....

Cat

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:24 pm

I have lost interest in any flight instruction in Canada due to my problems with TC

Welcome to my world, .. We have FIVE two seat certified aerobatic aircraft, and a wealth of aerobatic experience and instructors, but there is NO WAY Transport would ever let us hang up a shingle and teach acro because of their petty personal dislike for us.

So, f_ck 'em.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:25 pm

So Cat,

Are we talking a full circuit, or just the touch-and-go exercise? And if its a full circuit, what altitude are we looking at? I was thinking a good uncontrolled airport with a decent-lenght runway would work. I'd like to discuss this more in detail if you'd want to PM me.

And Hedley,

Thanks for the tip, sounds like an excellent exercise. One that I wish I had been shown earlier in my training. I had heard about it, but finding an instructor who would be willing to take the time to show you was always difficult. Particularily at Seneca where you have [x] amount of hours per lesson and per exercise. It made it very frustrating when you wanted to build personally on certain exercises, or learn the individual coordination exercises such as you described.

I know I've improved my own flying significantly since I got my instructor rating, partially from the Class 1 who did it, and partially from the different methods for both teaching and flying that I've spoken about with other pilots (bush, comm, and instructor).

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:27 pm

" So, f_ck 'em. "

I don't fu.k parasites.

***********************************************

From the Merrriam Webster dictionary

parasite
One entry found for parasite.

Main Entry: par·a·site
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"sIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 05, 2006 12:29 pm

clodhopper, full circuits...anyone can repetatively do touch and goes in a straight line.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:49 pm

Cat Driver wrote:" So, f_ck 'em. "

I don't fu.k maggots.

[heavy sarcasm] Haha until this, I was going to say this was one of the most logical and educated (or at least well-spoken) debates we've had on Avcanada in quite a while. [/heavy sarcasm]

That, and Cat, you were being well behaved in regards to TC. Figured it was a weird twilight zone type of thing.

Oh well, at least we know there are some constants in life!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:36 pm

clodhopper, thank you for bringing to my attention the improper use of a word...

If you go back and read that post I have corrected my mistake.

So thanks for giving me a chance to correct a mistake.

Cat

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:58 pm

Hahahaha, nicely done Cat.

That was awesome.