Our turn to strike ?

[truedude]

Can’t just say that jazz has no contract in place because one part isn’t being followed and that jazz pilots can strike because of that. That would still be an illegal strike because there still is a contract in place. When something in a contract isn’t being followed it goes through the grievance process. That’s how this all works

You should ask anyone in the MEC how that grievance is going…. I doubt they ever filed it.

I think legally if a single member brings up the issue it has to be grieved. These things take time. And in this case, most likely all the way down the process list in terms of time. Arbitrator at the very least. I would expect the better part of a year, possibly longer. Welcome to the red tape

It is the wait on the arbitrator that will be the issue. There is a long que, and our MEC is trying to get it fast tracked.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You should ask anyone in the MEC how that grievance is going…. I doubt they ever filed it.

I think legally if a single member brings up the issue it has to be grieved. These things take time. And in this case, most likely all the way down the process list in terms of time. Arbitrator at the very least. I would expect the better part of a year, possibly longer. Welcome to the red tape

It is the wait on the arbitrator that will be the issue. There is a long que, and our MEC is trying to get it fast tracked.

Yup. I really hope things can be accelerated for the jazz group. Completely unfair. But I don’t have high hopes anything or very little will come out of this. I have been proven wrong in the past though. Fingers crossed

[cdnavater]

From the union whenever you approach them regarding flow, be it the mec, lec chairs or anyone else involved they don’t seem to have much urgency towards resolving the flow issue. They indicate a grievance was filed, but don’t know much else. The company is the exact same, indicating Air Canada is hiring jazz pilots, and not much more.

So there is a lot of frustration over the appearance of a lack of concern, along with no communication regarding flow. And subsequent emails from the mec indicating that jazz has an uncertain future.

A petition mentioned earlier would at least capture the attention of leadership, both from union and company standpoint, to possibly give us more answers and push for more urgency. Another idea is for anyone unhappy here to approach company and union leadership and requesting more information regarding the flow issue. I have done this many times already.

Unfortunately in the end it may be quicker to take advantage of the ‘Jazz-Westjet flow program’.

Consensus I’ve gathered from the line suggests the grievance will be dropped and the flow rate will be modified to a lower percentage to support wage increases. The survey showed a majority favouring this approach and it’s just a matter of how much the company is willing to pay, currently not enough.

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

You know, most of us senior guys have been in this business over 30 years, of course we want a new boat or new….
The flow was what brought you here, since it’s not happening, why not leave! I hear WJ is hiring
I 110% support reduced flow for more money but our(senior guy) wages have been suppressed and falling behind inflation so, damn straight we want a piece of the action!

[hithere]

Jesus christ man, I've been here for 26 years and with three kids I just want to stop paying 19% interest on the credit cards I have just to put food on the table. Whatever idiot you just flew with probably does not have the same bills as the rest of us "senior guys". Probably spends his nights alone making love to screenshots of his bank account. We are not all like that loser

[airbussy]

Can’t just say that jazz has no contract in place because one part isn’t being followed and that jazz pilots can strike because of that. That would still be an illegal strike because there still is a contract in place. When something in a contract isn’t being followed it goes through the grievance process. That’s how this all works

You should ask anyone in the MEC how that grievance is going…. I doubt they ever filed it.

I think legally if a single member brings up the issue it has to be grieved. These things take time. And in this case, most likely all the way down the process list in terms of time. Arbitrator at the very least. I would expect the better part of a year, possibly longer. Welcome to the red tape

Not true. The greivance committee must hear it, and attempt to rectify with the company. If they say no, the MEC has the option to send it to greivance. But not all complaints are greived, nor do they legally have to be.

[rudder]

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

If that guy you flew with was 60 years old consider this:

He/she has spent 4 decades working for a living. Probably has a mortgage free home as well.

After you have spent 14,600 days in this industry you might find yourself in the position to buy a boat.

Statistics say that the average 60 year old has 1-23 more years above ground. No guarantees. Cut them some slack.

[canadian_aviator_4]

From the union whenever you approach them regarding flow, be it the mec, lec chairs or anyone else involved they don’t seem to have much urgency towards resolving the flow issue. They indicate a grievance was filed, but don’t know much else. The company is the exact same, indicating Air Canada is hiring jazz pilots, and not much more.

So there is a lot of frustration over the appearance of a lack of concern, along with no communication regarding flow. And subsequent emails from the mec indicating that jazz has an uncertain future.

A petition mentioned earlier would at least capture the attention of leadership, both from union and company standpoint, to possibly give us more answers and push for more urgency. Another idea is for anyone unhappy here to approach company and union leadership and requesting more information regarding the flow issue. I have done this many times already.

Unfortunately in the end it may be quicker to take advantage of the ‘Jazz-Westjet flow program’.

Consensus I’ve gathered from the line suggests the grievance will be dropped and the flow rate will be modified to a lower percentage to support wage increases. The survey showed a majority favouring this approach and it’s just a matter of how much the company is willing to pay, currently not enough.

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

You know, most of us senior guys have been in this business over 30 years, of course we want a new boat or new….
The flow was what brought you here, since it’s not happening, why not leave! I hear WJ is hiring
I 110% support reduced flow for more money but our(senior guy) wages have been suppressed and falling behind inflation so, damn straight we want a piece of the action!

The is probably the best advice given in this thread. Leave. Because nothing is going to improve at jazz for a while. We will all achieve instantaneous pay increases going to a number of mainline carriers in Canada and we will eliminate the stress in our lives of dealing with the incompetency that is Jazz. Not to mention getting much more valuable aircraft experience, because if you want to leave Canada companies would much prefer 737 or heavier time instead of regional aircraft.

[Outlaw58]

Consensus I’ve gathered from the line suggests the grievance will be dropped and the flow rate will be modified to a lower percentage to support wage increases. The survey showed a majority favouring this approach and it’s just a matter of how much the company is willing to pay, currently not enough.

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

You know, most of us senior guys have been in this business over 30 years, of course we want a new boat or new….
The flow was what brought you here, since it’s not happening, why not leave! I hear WJ is hiring
I 110% support reduced flow for more money but our(senior guy) wages have been suppressed and falling behind inflation so, damn straight we want a piece of the action!

The is probably the best advice given in this thread. Leave. Because nothing is going to improve at jazz for a while. We will all achieve instantaneous pay increases going to a number of mainline carriers in Canada and we will eliminate the stress in our lives of dealing with the incompetency that is Jazz. Not to mention getting much more valuable aircraft experience, because if you want to leave Canada companies would much prefer 737 or heavier time instead of regional aircraft.

CA4,

This may come as a surprise to you, and I say this with the utmost respect, but not everyone feels the way you do.

It is obvious that you are not happy at Jazz, so why have you not followed your own advice yet and left already? Or more to the point, whether you have left or not, why is it so important to you that everyone else leave or not apply as well?

Other pilots may have different backgrounds and career aspirations than you, leading them to make choices different from yours. Based on your level of happiness, one may not be inclined to follow your career advice. I, on the other hand, am happy, so I will offer you a piece of advice. Take control of the variable you can affect, ie your own career choices, and understand that everyone else's career choices have no impact whatsoever on you. Focusing on what others have or do is a sure recipe for eternal unhappiness.

If you are unhappy where you are, look for a job that excites you and you want to do (it may not even be in aviation!)... one that when you wake up in the morning, it doesn't even feel like going to work. When you find that, the dollar value on your paycheck at the end of the month won't aggravate you so much.

Since it appears to be what you want, I sincerely wish AC will call and hire you soon! I hope that once there, you will have a long successful and enriching career, fulfilling all of your aspirations!

Sincerely,

58

[smooth]

You can't until 2035, and Jazz MEC signed the contract black and white. For people who saying AC are not fulfilling their contract getting 60% from Jazz, yes it is true. But if they did hire 60% from Jazz. Jazz will break the contract by not fulfilling the schedule flying due to pilot shortage. And Which one has more a concern for the company? The latter one of course.

[truedude]

You can't until 2035, and Jazz MEC signed the contract black and white. For people who saying AC are not fulfilling their contract getting 60% from Jazz, yes it is true. But if they did hire 60% from Jazz. Jazz will break the contract by not fulfilling the schedule flying due to pilot shortage. And Which one has more a concern for the company? The latter one of course.

Not true. If they had followed the agreement, Jazz would have a bigger pool of pilots to hire from. But AC has made it clear the fastest route to AC is outside of Jazz, thus making it harder for Jazz to hire.

AC created the problem, and are the cause of the problem. And they are reaping what they sowed!

[truedude]

Oh, and whatever moron thought this PAL announcement was a good deal was a moron. We will lose so many pilots in the next month because of that, they won't be in flight ahead of where they are now.

[smooth]

They can have the biggest hiring pool at Jazz but the training department can never catch up though. And if AC is not fulfilling their side of promise, what Jazz have done so far? It's been how many month now?

You can't until 2035, and Jazz MEC signed the contract black and white. For people who saying AC are not fulfilling their contract getting 60% from Jazz, yes it is true. But if they did hire 60% from Jazz. Jazz will break the contract by not fulfilling the schedule flying due to pilot shortage. And Which one has more a concern for the company? The latter one of course.

Not true. If they had followed the agreement, Jazz would have a bigger pool of pilots to hire from. But AC has made it clear the fastest route to AC is outside of Jazz, thus making it harder for Jazz to hire.

AC created the problem, and are the cause of the problem. And they are reaping what they sowed!

[truedude]

They can have the biggest hiring pool at Jazz but the training department can never catch up though. And if AC is not fulfilling their side of promise, what Jazz have done so far? It's been how many month now?

You can't until 2035, and Jazz MEC signed the contract black and white. For people who saying AC are not fulfilling their contract getting 60% from Jazz, yes it is true. But if they did hire 60% from Jazz. Jazz will break the contract by not fulfilling the schedule flying due to pilot shortage. And Which one has more a concern for the company? The latter one of course.

Not true. If they had followed the agreement, Jazz would have a bigger pool of pilots to hire from. But AC has made it clear the fastest route to AC is outside of Jazz, thus making it harder for Jazz to hire.

AC created the problem, and are the cause of the problem. And they are reaping what they sowed!

Well when our trainers are leaving because everyone has signaled Jazz is a sinking ship, this is the result. We are losing more pilots to everywhere else than AC right now. All because they don't want to fix pay or deal with the issue or follow their own agreement.

[smooth]

Yes totally, I know couple Embraer trainer/ACP went to Porter. And I don't blame them, not only their pay is much higher. Year 1 CA starting at $150,000(with trainer pay will be more), with only $100 a month deduction on health benefits. They are dying to have anyone that has Embraer experience and training experience. And Jazz is the biggest hiring pool. Now with Porter opening YUL base....Jazz might loose even more Embraer guys to Porter.

They can have the biggest hiring pool at Jazz but the training department can never catch up though. And if AC is not fulfilling their side of promise, what Jazz have done so far? It's been how many month now?

Not true. If they had followed the agreement, Jazz would have a bigger pool of pilots to hire from. But AC has made it clear the fastest route to AC is outside of Jazz, thus making it harder for Jazz to hire.

AC created the problem, and are the cause of the problem. And they are reaping what they sowed!

Well when our trainers are leaving because everyone has signaled Jazz is a sinking ship, this is the result. We are losing more pilots to everywhere else than AC right now. All because they don't want to fix pay or deal with the issue or follow their own agreement.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Jazz is feeling the result of high attrition already. Yesterday they had the second highest amount of flight cancellations out of any airline worldwide. The summer will only get worse. Overall the next best thing to do besides striking is to leave. Mostly everyone is.

[QKZXKV]

It's a very interesting scene to observe tbh. The return to basically being Air Ontario as far as the routes and staffing is concerned is a very interesting chicken/egg situation.

Other than horrible pay, large deductions, and working conditions that are decimating morale, is the axe to the western flying increasing the staffing crunch or is the staffing crunch really creating the issues for a lot of the flying as they say?

I'd say they've made this a lot worse when AC decided to jettison all the western routes. Why would anyone out west want to stay and be an Air Ontario pilot in those conditions when there's options? We're seeing evidence that most aren't.

[canadian_aviator_4]

It's a very interesting scene to observe tbh. The return to basically being Air Ontario as far as the routes and staffing is concerned is a very interesting chicken/egg situation.

Other than horrible pay, large deductions, and working conditions that are decimating morale, is the axe to the western flying increasing the staffing crunch or is the staffing crunch really creating the issues for a lot of the flying as they say?

I'd say they've made this a lot worse when AC decided to jettison all the western routes. Why would anyone out west want to stay and be an Air Ontario pilot in those conditions when there's options? We're seeing evidence that most aren't.

The real question is why would anyone stay….. unless they have built up a number of years on their pension.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yes totally, I know couple Embraer trainer/ACP went to Porter. And I don't blame them, not only their pay is much higher. Year 1 CA starting at $150,000(with trainer pay will be more), with only $100 a month deduction on health benefits. They are dying to have anyone that has Embraer experience and training experience. And Jazz is the biggest hiring pool. Now with Porter opening YUL base....Jazz might loose even more Embraer guys to Porter.

They can have the biggest hiring pool at Jazz but the training department can never catch up though. And if AC is not fulfilling their side of promise, what Jazz have done so far? It's been how many month now?

Well when our trainers are leaving because everyone has signaled Jazz is a sinking ship, this is the result. We are losing more pilots to everywhere else than AC right now. All because they don't want to fix pay or deal with the issue or follow their own agreement.

Especially if they were at sky regional. The amount of more senior jazz pilots coming over to the E1 would basically put you mid pack on the seniority list for your base/position. Jazz refuses to benchmark to other airlines with similar work/aircraft. And until they do….I expect high attrition rates. I think the MEC is trying, but it’s blood from a stone.

[RILEY]

From the union whenever you approach them regarding flow, be it the mec, lec chairs or anyone else involved they don’t seem to have much urgency towards resolving the flow issue. They indicate a grievance was filed, but don’t know much else. The company is the exact same, indicating Air Canada is hiring jazz pilots, and not much more.

So there is a lot of frustration over the appearance of a lack of concern, along with no communication regarding flow. And subsequent emails from the mec indicating that jazz has an uncertain future.

A petition mentioned earlier would at least capture the attention of leadership, both from union and company standpoint, to possibly give us more answers and push for more urgency. Another idea is for anyone unhappy here to approach company and union leadership and requesting more information regarding the flow issue. I have done this many times already.

Unfortunately in the end it may be quicker to take advantage of the ‘Jazz-Westjet flow program’.

Consensus I’ve gathered from the line suggests the grievance will be dropped and the flow rate will be modified to a lower percentage to support wage increases. The survey showed a majority favouring this approach and it’s just a matter of how much the company is willing to pay, currently not enough.

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

You know, most of us senior guys have been in this business over 30 years, of course we want a new boat or new….
The flow was what brought you here, since it’s not happening, why not leave! I hear WJ is hiring
I 110% support reduced flow for more money but our(senior guy) wages have been suppressed and falling behind inflation so, damn straight we want a piece of the action!

Wake up - you really think anyone would come to Jazz without the flow? Flow is the only reason Jazz is still afloat. Are you going to operate an 80-aircraft CPA with the 30% of the pilots who are in the top third of seniority and top of the pay scale? Because that's who all would be left if flow was axed.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Consensus I’ve gathered from the line suggests the grievance will be dropped and the flow rate will be modified to a lower percentage to support wage increases. The survey showed a majority favouring this approach and it’s just a matter of how much the company is willing to pay, currently not enough.

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

You know, most of us senior guys have been in this business over 30 years, of course we want a new boat or new….
The flow was what brought you here, since it’s not happening, why not leave! I hear WJ is hiring
I 110% support reduced flow for more money but our(senior guy) wages have been suppressed and falling behind inflation so, damn straight we want a piece of the action!

Wake up - you really think anyone would come to Jazz without the flow? Flow is the only reason Jazz is still afloat. Are you going to operate an 80-aircraft CPA with the 30% of the pilots who are in the top third of seniority and top of the pay scale? Because that's who all would be left if flow was axed.

Good luck as well trying to increase pay. That went well for jazz the last time, then suddenly sky regional appeared. Now you have PAL to do the exact same thing. I hope this is not the case and big raises actually do materialize at jazz.

[truedude]

You know, most of us senior guys have been in this business over 30 years, of course we want a new boat or new….
The flow was what brought you here, since it’s not happening, why not leave! I hear WJ is hiring
I 110% support reduced flow for more money but our(senior guy) wages have been suppressed and falling behind inflation so, damn straight we want a piece of the action!

Wake up - you really think anyone would come to Jazz without the flow? Flow is the only reason Jazz is still afloat. Are you going to operate an 80-aircraft CPA with the 30% of the pilots who are in the top third of seniority and top of the pay scale? Because that's who all would be left if flow was axed.

Good luck as well trying to increase pay. That went well for jazz the last time, then suddenly sky regional appeared. Now you have PAL to do the exact same thing. I hope this is not the case and big raises actually do materialize at jazz.

Except unlike last time, they won't be able to staff PAL.

[rudder]

Jazz is feeling the result of high attrition already. Yesterday they had the second highest amount of flight cancellations out of any airline worldwide. The summer will only get worse. Overall the next best thing to do besides striking is to leave. Mostly everyone is.

All of these subjects can be empirically measured.

Resignations. Flight completion rate. Applicant experience level.

I cannot imagine that it paints a very pretty picture. But the fact that nothing has changed at Jazz - nothing - does not bode well for the future.

Other operators appear to be making alternate plans. Many Jazz pilots are making alternate plans.

Time does not stand still.

[QKZXKV]

The resignations are indeed snowballing. Frustrations have boiled over, even with something as simple as the training dept who can't get their **** together. I know of a few upgrades & new hires sitting around doing nothing and aren't able to get in touch with the coordinators to see what gives. I'd furious myself.

That stat about cancellations doesn't seem to phase the people in charge either. They want to hit the big iceberg it seems.

[rudder]

The resignations are indeed snowballing. Frustrations have boiled over, even with something as simple as the training dept who can't get their **** together. I know of a few upgrades & new hires sitting around doing nothing and aren't able to get in touch with the coordinators to see what gives. I'd furious myself.

That stat about cancellations doesn't seem to phase the people in charge either. They want to hit the big iceberg it seems.

“Houston - we have a problem”

What if Houston doesn’t have a clue what to do?